From All Thieves: We need help!

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:20 am

Well, I've been looking at the differences and changes that have been made in the 6 years that I have been here. I have seen that wizards have gotten a huge boost in ability, fighters have been weakened somewhat, priests are stronger. Now, I don't know about the bards, rangers, nor paladins as I own none (my bard I was told I had to perform at an event). I do, however, know that rogues have been stagnant from what I can tell. Yes, they did get a couple skills such as 'influence' and use magic device, but they seem rather stagnant when there were such heated posts in their favor (a la http://www.gallwey.com/fk/board/viewtopic.php?t=3269).

Aside from the quick burst damage of the initial backstab, they have really no way to defend themselves. As mentioned in previous posts, if they are not needed for any traps, why bother taking them along for a quest when they are so high upkeep?

Rogues are wonderful creatures (at least the Halflings are, all the other ones can rot

). They are blessed with the art of stealth and assassination. They are tricky in both verbal confontation and their abilities to use weapons, armors, scrolls, and artifacts that were never even intended for them!

That being said: I believe there are a couple things, aside from dual-backstab, that could really give rogues more utility in battle. How about feint feat? It could do a check for your backstab versus their dodge (due to game mechanics - normally, for those who don't know, it is "bluff" versus "spot" [Yes, this would cripple rogues slightly in comparison to real D&D, but it is better than nothing, no?]). With normal feint, it could take 1 round. Later, perhaps, one could learn 'improved feint' where the check and damage are done within the same round.

Now, while they still cannot take a hit due to their physical limitations, they will be a nice, steady substitute for a mage damage-wise with much less utility.

Lerytha · Post by **Lerytha** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:44 am

I understand that thieves may not perhaps be as powerful as some classes. Perhaps. However, new systems will no doubt be implemented, as was the spell system, that will make thieves/fighters far more useful/powerful.

I have no idea, I stress, whether new systems are being planned. However there's been some talk of a next project possibly being a revamped fighting system.

Is it worth doing a short-term "patch" or "bandaging" of the thief class, when a long-term rehaul of combat might better serve to aid in the various imbalances (i.e, flying should not instigate combat! - from my mage gene, that).

I'm not saying don't have the discussion. Stuff here from thief characters will probably help the coding team find something they might have missed if they are thinking of any future projects. I'm just saying that whilst there may not be (and there very well might be!) any immediate change, don't lose heart. The topic may be useful as I said.

For the record: bards are a wonderful class to play and I think quite balanced. Wizards are powerful (sometimes), but they pay a helluva price in gold for that. Fighters are not exactly weak, but I take your point. I also take your point that there is a lot in the thief class that is sort of lacking.

Not having played a thief, but having seen thieves in action, I can see some areas where they might need some attention. But I'll wait for thief players to write them!

Lathander · Post by **Lathander** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:17 am

Well I know of at least one rogue who rescued an imprisoned unicorn from the first layer of the Abyss.

Zilvryn · Post by **Zilvryn** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:17 pm

I've not noticed any particular imbalance with my thief chars. The only way they suffer is when I try to solo and area. Since dodge has been changed to only being able to avoid one attack a round, combined with the low HP of rogues, he tends to take a pasting. But then, rogues aren't supposed to be able to beat hell out of mobs, so I've always thought it balanced.

Give me a nice dark corner and some poisoned daggers, then thieves are in their element.

Maybel · Post by **Maybel** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:16 pm

Lathander wrote:Well I know of at least one rogue who rescued an imprisoned unicorn from the first layer of the Abyss.

Yup... and I know three priests, a ranger, two fighters and a wizard who backed her up

Zilvryn · Post by **Zilvryn** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:24 pm

That's the point though, surely?

Rogues -should- be able to achieve things on their own through stealth and guile, and the occasional sneaky backstab. Not through toe-2-toe combat. That's how they work on the MUD.

I think the class is pretty well balanced myself.

Also, a rogue with good skills will be able to take out a fighter in PvP, i've seen it happen numerous times. So again, I think the class is well balanced.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:02 pm

Lerytha wrote:I understand that thieves may not perhaps be as powerful as some classes. Perhaps. However, new systems will no doubt be implemented, as was the spell system, that will make thieves/fighters far more useful/powerful.

I have no idea, I stress, whether new systems are being planned. However there's been some talk of a next project possibly being a revamped fighting system.

Is it worth doing a short-term "patch" or "bandaging" of the thief class, when a long-term rehaul of combat might better serve to aid in the various imbalances (i.e, flying should not instigate combat! - from my mage gene, that).

I'm not saying don't have the discussion. Stuff here from thief characters will probably help the coding team find something they might have missed if they are thinking of any future projects. I'm just saying that whilst there may not be (and there very well might be!) any immediate change, don't lose heart. The topic may be useful as I said.

For the record: bards are a wonderful class to play and I think quite balanced. Wizards are powerful (sometimes), but they pay a helluva price in gold for that. Fighters are not exactly weak, but I take your point. I also take your point that there is a lot in the thief class that is sort of lacking.

Not having played a thief, but having seen thieves in action, I can see some areas where they might need some attention. But I'll wait for thief players to write them!

Well, I'm not just saying power-wise. See, consciously or not, whenever we form a group we do what's best for the group most of the time when we're going someplace that we know is dangerous. If we have to pick between a hunter and a rogue, welllllll. Rogues will always be thrown on the backburner unless there is some place we _know_ a rogue is needed. Rogues in D&D are good for everything. In combat, no, they can't tank but they can definately spit out some damage. They are great at making traps and disarming them. Opening locks? No problem. Bugbear too powerful and just want the key? Consider it stolen. Due to many of the game's functions and limitations, I understand that many of these things cannot be hard-coded. I was unaware the combat system would be completely overhauled, but the proposed feats would easily translate over anyhow, I'm sure. Anyhow, it was just a suggestion. I would love to hear from others as well.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:06 pm

Zilvryn wrote:That's the point though, surely?

Rogues -should- be able to achieve things on their own through stealth and guile, and the occasional sneaky backstab. Not through toe-2-toe combat. That's how they work on the MUD.

I think the class is pretty well balanced myself.

Also, a rogue with good skills will be able to take out a fighter in PvP, i've seen it happen numerous times. So again, I think the class is well balanced.

Like Tretch, I have to completely disagree with you. You put any 'skilled' rogue in combat with someone like Nivek or Tretch or even Selveem and it gets ugly. Geared or not, when it comes down to it, they aren't going to finish the fight. This wasn't my point, however. I don't care how rogues do in PVP - PVP should always be used as a last resort anyhow. I'm talking about group balance and utility.

Zilvryn · Post by **Zilvryn** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:07 pm

Come on, the three fighters you've mentioned are old code, serious uber-pwnz0rs...

I'm talking current code fighters against current code rogues...

Moloch · Post by **Moloch** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:10 pm

The only suggestion I have for the rogue class would be to give them an extra dodge or two per round, since they ARE so agile, and they DO wear so little armour. I know that rogues used to be so much more fun when they could dodge more than once per round.

Zilvryn · Post by **Zilvryn** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:12 pm

Moloch wrote:The only suggestion I have for the rogue class would be to give them an extra dodge or two per round, since they ARE so agile, and they DO wear so little armour. I know that rogues used to be so much more fun when they could dodge more than once per round.

Agreed, since dodge has gone down to 1 attack a round it's made life a lot more difficult..

Moloch · Post by **Moloch** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:43 pm

Oh...and...*cough*..sneak attack...*cough*

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:47 pm

As far as I'm concerned, I'm against giving them more dodge for the moment. I'd rather wait till the whole AC system is correctly implemented before fiddling with things like dodge. Once the AC is revised, high Dex should be as effective as the best armour around. Giving

That being said, I'm all for getting rid of backstab and circlestab and putting in sneak attacks. (Sneak attack = bonus to damage when (a) the attack is a surprise attack, from a hidden or invisible rogue or when (b) someone else, grouped with the rogue, is attacking the same target as the rogue). That would be a relatively simple code modification.

Just my personal opinion.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:15 pm

Dalvyn wrote:As far as I'm concerned, I'm against giving them more dodge for the moment. I'd rather wait till the whole AC system is correctly implemented before fiddling with things like dodge. Once the AC is revised, high Dex should be as effective as the best armour around. Giving

That being said, I'm all for getting rid of backstab and circlestab and putting in sneak attacks. (Sneak attack = bonus to damage when (a) the attack is a surprise attack, from a hidden or invisible rogue or when (b) someone else, grouped with the rogue, is attacking the same target as the rogue). That would be a relatively simple code modification.

Just my personal opinion.

Have I told..you lately..that I love you?

Alaudrien · Post by **Alaudrien** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:55 pm

Aye I do agree...with that -loves on dalvyn- Hmm. For dodge and parry I have noticed you can get more than one dodge per round but it is more depedant on if the person your fighting is dual wielding. Most of the time I spar or fight someone with two blades I can dodge each blade once..or parry each blade once. This is from observation though. Hmm as for dodge and such when the new battle system is done put in the feats like improved dodge/evasion. If they are balancing. As for Sneak attack -drools- I loves it!

Rhytania · Post by **Rhytania** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:16 pm

Just to go off of Selveem's Post:

If we have to pick between a hunter and a rogue, welllllll. Rogues will always be thrown on the backburner unless there is some place we _know_ a rogue is needed

Sadly I find this to be true, perhaps code some of the new areas or quests with a certain angle for rogues. Honestly Out of all the quests I have seen EXTREMELY few "require" the skills of a rogue. All the good areas require your fighter, healer, and magic user, but unlike table top DnD, rogues cant dynamically affect the outcome of a quest, area, or mob by intrigue or guile. Stacked with the fact that just about all the major abilities of a rogue can be mimcked by other classes,
there really is no incentive to bring a rogue along (Unless hes Moloch

) becuase immediately they become nothing more than a liability in combat.
If I would march for any purpose that would be to make rogues more useful in a group environment(IE code a few more extra traps, more locked doors, hidden shortcuts, special mobs that carry keys to certain parts of an area, ect ect.)

Tavik · Post by **Tavik** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:50 am

I whole-hearted agree with what Rhytania suggests. I do have a thief, but don't play him hardly at all, because he doesn't get the RP oportunities that some of my other players get. From what I've seen, most rogues (in general) are allowed to join a group with the attitude of "Well, I suppose you can come, but stay quiet and out of the way." I think adding in the things suggested by Rhytania would help bring rogues into more constructive RP and adenturing rather than always having to steal to get a little RP action. Additionally, maybe some rogue oriented trinkets could be brought in. Just my thoughts.

Alaudrien · Post by **Alaudrien** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:44 am

Totally. Not really rogues..because bards fall into the category of rogue but well they..are a pretty balanced and strong class. Thieves need more of a place. I say more traps and locked doors would be helpful. Albeit a mage can cast a spell to detect traps I think and open locks..but he cannot disarm them. I think finding a way to bring a thief into the mix would be nice. Although from what Dalvyn said about the thought of a sneak attack. They would become alot more nice into a group since when someone is tanking they would be trying to get in sneak attacks and such which would be SWEEEET!

Although this makes me wish they had a maze just for thieves full of thiefly traps and tricks they have to get through although that is here no there >.>

Shabanna · Post by **Shabanna** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:34 am

I have seen fighters run through traps that nearly killed them rather than wait one second for a "rogue" to RP detecting and disarming a trap. ( notice the "RP" in that sentence...) As I have seen it...No one ever wants to wait for a person to detect and detrap ( and god forbid you want to RP it

) I suppose having to wait could also count one of the "liabilities" of taking along a rogue

I will say...It has been my experience that people are more willing to wait and are better about it in an Imm run situation ( or when they think they are being watched! lol ) But if not, pretty much they charge along and take the damage and allow the cleric to heal them on the fly.

People expect rogues to be fighters and UNLIKE tabletop they are forced to be because the traps are not severe enough to make the others wait. IMHO more traps just means more times the healer gets to practice heal

I quit trying to take my rogue along because it annoyed me to be shoved along and considered a "weak fighter" by those who prefered to charge along on jog and let the big hairy guy in the front take the hits of the traps. Maybe if traps damged the whole group rather than just the fearless leader, rogues would actually get more work?

I dont think rogues need more bells and whistles we just need more people willing to let us do what it is we CAN do

rogues are not just supposed to be "Fighter lite" I dislike trying to turn them into that.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:08 am

Would making traps more deadly be a solution then?