Spell/Skill/Feat Drive?

[Selveem]

There was a drive a while back for missing spells hosted by Dalvyn.

I was curious if we could have another drive to add trainers accessible to most races/aligns/faiths/classes. We've got a lot of really cool stuff on FK that players still haven't even seen yet; it'd be nice to see them added to the game.

[Orplar]

I agree. Especially along the lines of feats!

[Hrosskell]

I support this message because I believe that implementing feats (for their purpose as flavor and function) is a really high priority for the existing and expanding player-base.

Well... It is for me! You guys are like me, right? XD

[Mask]

Good idea! Go for it. There were large swathes of feats/skills added a few months ago, so it would be good to get a read on what we are still missing, and from where...

[Selveem]

Shall I set up different threads for each individual one to find out what's missing for what types?

[Mask]

I can't remember how Dalvyn did it, so copy whatever he did that worked and try something different for the bits he did that didn't work

[Duranamir]

Alternative soloution to missing spell trainers.

Whilst i am happy with having more trainers for spells in general, making all spells available to all characters through trainers is going to be a massive soft code task. I am also not sure it is desirable as it will turn all wizards into clones of each other.

Reading the SRD for 3.5 i came across the following section.

A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the wizard has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice. At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards spellbooks to her own.

To me it looks like this could solve a lot of our trouble without having to add massive numbers of trainers for high level spells. It would also encourage RP as a mage known to have a rare spell would be much in demand as a trainer. It would require hardcode change rather than soft code, but once done should mean that new spells could be easily added without worrying too much about availability of trainers.

As we do have spell trainers relativley freely available i would probably restrict new spell learning via this method somewhat, but i do think a wizard should get at least one spell of each spell level by choice when he gains that level of spellcasting.

This could even be applied retroactivley to exisiting mages, allowing them to pick one spell for each level they know.

Duranamir

[Selveem]

I disagree. That's just talking about during leveling and has no bearing on the maximum amount of spells a wizard can learn. Wizards, unlike Sorcerers, are allowed to learn as many spells as they wish provided they find the knowledge (such as looking at another wizard's spellbook [aka: train command], finding scrolls [which don't exist in the game anymore], or perhaps researching in a library [option not available in FK]).

Still, the remaining spells should be added to the game to be learned from. It's impossible for all wizards spellbooks to be the same unless all wizards are of the Mages guild. Restricted spells will always differentiate casters amongst each other as well as (should we continue to keep it) their skill level in specified spells.

While it might be nice to be able to "automatically learn" spells, in the long run, I think they still need to have associated trainers for other people. Keep in mind a lot of these spells are shared not just by wizards but by Druids, Priests, and perhaps others who don't get such benefits.

[Brar]

I completly agree with Duranamir, that would be a very nice solution I think, and you can still find scrolls and the like to find new spells.
I would even go as far as remove all mage's spell from "trainers" and leave only the spell you gain per level and the finding of scrolls and then the sharing between players.

But for this, you have to do 2 things, makes the others spellcasting classes the same as per the books as in giving the paladins, rangers and clerics all spells available immediatly upon leveling and gives the bard their spells / level choice.

Then, remove the teacher/scholar feats for "teaching" spells (and only spells) which are already ridiculous because you only need to scribe a scroll and gives it to the other character to bypass this restriction for spells...

I disagree. That's just talking about during leveling and has no bearing on the maximum amount of spells a wizard can learn. Wizards, unlike Sorcerers, are allowed to learn as many spells as they wish provided they find the knowledge (such as looking at another wizard's spellbook [aka: train command], finding scrolls [which don't exist in the game anymore], or perhaps researching in a library [option not available in FK]).

They would still be allowed to learn as many spells as they wish, by exchange with other (player) wizards and finding scrolls (which exists more than ever in the mud....) like in a tabletop campaign.

And this method would also unlock the spells that have no trainers yet, like most of the 9th level spells and such, it would also gives a lot more customisation for wizards.
And encourage player to player interaction for the sharing of spells which is always good.

Also, there is always the possibility to find spellbooks that gives you spell to write in your own spellbook, there is at least 3 I know in the game and I far from seen it all...

Brar

[Selveem]

I disagree even more, now. You're talking about learning from a scroll which will put you at inept. A lot of spells are damned near useless at inept and you'd have to train every single one of them up to where they are useful. Otherwise, you'll have to give wizards a large increase from a single scroll (which, by the way, there are no scrolls which give above level 2 spells that I've seen thus far from randomized quest rewards - those who already completed the quests are screwed even if it's changed).

If you do give them these large increases, it drastically decreases the amount of coin required for them to train things, makes them level up faster (they don't have to waste exp on training spells anymore), _and_ stronger than the melee classes (which, right now, they already are).

Lastly, as I stated before, Priests, Paladins, Rangers and Druids would get full access to all their spells automatically without having to train anything if we went by D&D rules.

It's not hard to add spells and skills to mobs for them to train. It's not difficult to find neutral areas to place them in. I don't see the great gain by giving away the house.

Oh, and Brar, your spellbook count is off. One of those is in an area that's no longer in the game.

[Lathander]

How about a spell-trainer quest competition? We list the spells that don't have trainers, invite people to write a quest where the reward is access to a competent trainer. The person who submits the quest that is chosen to be added is given the spell at novice as his/her reward for submitting the winning quest.

No coding experience should be necessary, but details of the mob names and locations to be used, specific speech/response patterns for those mobs, and fleshed out requirements for quest completion should be a requirement.

[Selveem]

Sounds like a good idea to get some of these lazy FKers like Brar (joking!) busy! I'm all in.

There's a lot of spells missing; would we be selecting from spells we are pretty sure aren't in the game? What level spell are we talking? Are all neutral areas game for such a quest? Would this also apply to all the missing feats?

Let's do this!

[Brar]

I think it's a very nice idea Lathander, expect you have nine chance out of ten that the character who will have the spell won't be able to teach it because he won't have the 4 feats required to teach high level spells... (I never really understood the point of those feats except to forbids peoples to roleplay, but that's another topic)

Just to answer Selveem on scrolls, Eltsac filled his entire level 1 to 3 spellbook with random scrolls and you can virtually have those indefinitely, it just requires time and some exchange with other players to do it.

So yes, you will have them at inept, and that's may be discouraging, but then it's not a death wish either, you can raise them quite quickly to amateur and even novice. I had 3 spells at inept through pc to pc lessons and all of them are already novice or more, and they are not attack spells.
And I don't cast them for nothing either...
And with the new component usage rates, that's not even an excuse anymore.

If training something at inept is such a pain then it would be better to petition to have it removed altogether and let's everything starts at novice or apprentice so it's less of a pain... (That's basically what you are saying)

Personally, I would rather have more repeatable ways to get higher level random scrolls, be them quests, repoping chests in high level areas (similar to the bandits lair but high level), random loots on higher level group mobs and the like.

And what I would find a very good addition and a long term mesure instead of a bandaid, is the possibility to use a scroll to raise your spell level, let's say to novice or apprentice max. Then instead of going exploring to find THE mob that can train you, you're more inclined to go adventuring and find loots you can exchange to others players to find the one you want.

The results is the same in the end, but the means are more adventure oriented than city exploration.

But again this would incline to player to player interaction instead of player to mob interaction.

Brar

[Selveem]

We're not talking about spells level 1-3. Or even 1-4. Those are all (or at least mostly) in game thanks to the previous drive. I'm talking about higher level spells. Try leveling up a level 8 or 9 spell to sufficient skill level from inept (or even novice). I'll see you in a few years (unless you cheat, in which case you'd probably get found out long before you get near a single increase).

At any rate, I like Lathander's idea better. More quests in the game = happier Adventurer's Guild.

[Duranamir]

Just to clarify, my own idea was to give a spell of each spell level when the wizard learned that level to help a little with higher level spells, I personally support as many more spells through scrolls quests any any other means we can get.

The aim was to improve slightly the availability of the higher level spells and allow some of the less well served races/alignments at least a chance at some of the more powerful spells.

Duranamir

[Selveem]

Re: Duranamir:

My bad, then, brotha. What do you think about Lathander's idea?

[Mask]

One idea I had for this for this was to add some kind of 'spell research' that people could do to research unknown spells - it would possibly cost glory to do...then they could teach bits and pieces of it to others if they wanted.

[Selveem]

That'd be cool (and IC) too, but would it instantaneously give them teacher/scholar feats? What skill level would they get it at, since they're spending glory? And lastly, how much glory are we talking?

[Mask]

It was just an idea, I hadn't really followed it through to any conclusion. It's a case of 'what do we do with glory' and 'how do we get spells into the game'. Maybe a rate of 2 glory per spell level - I don't know.

[Brar]

Yes, and we reapeat the same problem in 3 months when there is new spells added...

Now if those same quests give acess to a random scroll (and you can have higher level scrolls from random rewards) instead of a trainer, then you will have the same results (with a randomisation, so you can't do a quest specifically for gaining a certain spell, but I only see that as a refrain for people in the known to always do the same quest with every of their character just to get the nifty spell and leave the other quests never done and useless builders work...we had that with gate, and it was randomized for this very reason, nobody cared to finish the quest once they had the book)

And that's the same amount of quests, so adventurer's guild are as happy

I think our divergence in opinion is the short term/long term, your solution is very good for the short term, we add plenty of trainers and everyone trains all their spells from 1 to 9, but when we add new spells, we're stuck again at the same problems and have to do the work again.

My solution (of learnign spell level via scrolls like if it was trainers) would solve the problem in the same way (the only difference would be the randomization of the gain and thus less metagaming to have what you want), but we only have to add spells to the game for them to become available directly through this system.

We can even extend that to skills/weapons with books, we could imagine making "treatise" (I'm not sure it is the english word) about a certain skill / weapon and upon reading it, you consume it and you gain 1 skill point (up to apprentice I would say), I think it would not be hard to add that to the random loot tables.

I would not make them the "learning" ways for skill and weapons, but only a possibility to increase something you already know. (and even then, I'm not sure you won't be able to learn to do somethign only by readin a book and trying yourself...)

And the random loot collectible exchanging thing is something that is addictive and has be proven to work already (think pokemon, magic the gathering, random collectible card game).
And I think it would push people toward adventuring endlessly because you never know what you will gain. (And for that, repeatable quests are really the best)

RE: Marty, I really like the idea but see Selveem's remark about scholar/teacher

Brar

PS: level 9 spell from amateur to novice in less than 50 hours of playing (since the change in component rates) and it's not an attack spell, that's not that hard, I don't even think level plays a part in the skill level rates.

Edit: Damn you guys, the time to write my post you wrote ten others...