Flight - recent changes

[Elke]

I'm surprised this hasn't come up already, and maybe it's just me, but here goes...

Waaaaaaaaaaaah give me my old Fly back!



All right, now the wailing is over, I'm going to be more serious. I'm more than happy with the duration drop - the spell was over-powered. But the inability to fly over fights is leaving me slightly exasperated. Not because I mind or object to getting into the fights if Elke is wandering, but simply because the whole thing has become silly rp-wise. She flies over the snake on the ground. The snake leaps up into the air with it's...non-existent...legs...and attacks? It...somehow gets into melee range despite the fact that she's maybe twenty, thirty feet in the air?

Arm the mobs with ranged attacks and let them shoot her out of the sky. Let the magic-wielding mobs by all means try to blow her up on sight. But please, please, if someone is in the air, can't they be targeted by ranged attacks only? Please?

*gives the sweetest pleading look she can manage*

[Glim]

The only reason I can think of for it being changed was it provided too much of an advantage for casters. I would also imagine it would take a lot of work to make mobs react reasonably to it.

Other than that, it makes little sense to not be able to fly over your mobs.

[Mask]

There may be future change in this area, but for now simply assume that your character is only able to fly a couple of feet off the ground.

[Zorinar]

Of course getting used to change is always the hardest step, so the new flight spell is making me feel weird but it is still better than walking. Just to comment, I am already seeing younger wizards having a hard time leaving Waterdeep even though they have fly, due to the dangers of combat. If everyone could try to help them out with their travels now, that would make for some nice roleplay.

[Ramirus]

Even without fly, it is very possible to travel to just about any city and avoid combat. You can take extra steps off the road to avoid bandits, and if you're a little bit careful, you can easily avoid any dangers lurking off the roads, by either knowing where is safe, and where is not safe, or traveling during the day so you can see infront of you. So I think younger wizards who use fly won't have much trouble staying out of combat as long as they don't rush through traveling.

[Mele]

I never really thought flight worked out so well in the logic area any place beyond flying over things while walking. I don't find it logical to fly low enough to engage one mob and the others are magically unable to touch you. To fly low enough to get items from the ground, but mobs can't touch you. To fly low enough to cook/bury a body but mobs can't touch you. To fly low enough that someone can hear you speaking to them, but use fly in a PK to avoid their being able to touch you and turn it into a one sided slaughter. To fly over an entire community of giants high enough so they, as giants, can't reach you, but you can see everything below you. To fly in any indoor place but be able to lower to fly through doors and be left untouched. So on, so forth.

Don't get my wrong, I've very likely to some extent done all of those things.

As far as lowbie wizards are concerned, if you have the fly spell you are by no means prohibited to walk the roads at all. Use the look command, fly around the aggressive mobiles. You are still 100% better off than a lowbie without the ability to fly.

[Elke]

I never really thought flight worked out so well in the logic area any place beyond flying over things while walking. I don't find it logical to fly low enough to engage one mob and the others are magically unable to touch you. To fly low enough to get items from the ground, but mobs can't touch you. To fly low enough to cook/bury a body but mobs can't touch you. To fly low enough that someone can hear you speaking to them, but use fly in a PK to avoid their being able to touch you and turn it into a one sided slaughter. To fly over an entire community of giants high enough so they, as giants, can't reach you, but you can see everything below you. To fly in any indoor place but be able to lower to fly through doors and be left untouched. So on, so forth.

I agree that the Fly spell wasn't at all logical as it was. If you fly low enough to engage one mob in melee everything else there should be able to hit you. If you fly low enough to pick up something, mobs should indeed be able to hit you, as with body disposal. The flying low enough to overhear someone and speak to them does make sense to me. Specifically I would say that the Fly spell is meant to lend a tremendous advantage which is why in standard D&D (well, 3.5 ed) it lasts a minute per level, which is why I think that the duration adjustment is a good thing.

But! I do think that it should be, for example, possible to use Fly spells to scout, by flying overhead to look over the danger and report back. It also really, really shouldn't be possible for a mob with a melee weapon only to fight a wizard in the air slinging ranged spells. Much better would be to give them a ranged weapon. All my D&D characters, ever, have had a back up ranged weapon, even the ones with flaws in ranged attack, for just this reason.

I also note some big disadvantages which may have been overlooked here. Yes, a lowbie wizard can avoid combat by keeping their eyes peeled. But one of the distinct advantages of the Fly spell was not having to run backward and forward like a lunatic (i.e. not use up too much stamina). Believe me, as a lowbie wizard you have far too little of the stuff in the first place, and if it gets worn down very quickly and you then need to flee and can't, you're, well, doomed.

The other disadvantage is also related to hampered fleeing. Formerly, a wizard with the Fly spell could flee into the air (end up in next square out of combat), whereas now they can 'fly' up and away from combat but still get mobbed by the enemies on the 'ground' around them in the next square. Fleeing is essential for a lowbie wizard to balance out squishiness and I despair to think how much harder the already insanely difficult low-level wizardly grind will get.

I can live with the 'just drifting over the ground' explanation, just, but I can only say I really, really look forward to those changes mentioned being made. Whilst the old Fly was broken and overpowered, I honestly think the new Fly is broken and underpowered.

[Elke]

Adding to this, here's my quick suggestion on how I'd hope to see Fly work. It would be as the former rules with a bit of amending:

'Descend' command

This indicates that the character has entered to within reach of melee combatants. Without using this command a wizard can only use offensive -ranged- spells and attacks, and not offensive melee attacks or offensive spells with a range of touch.


'Rise' command

This removes the flyer from melee combat, with the proviso that the withdrawal behaves like the 'Flee' command and may not be immediately successful. A character that has risen cannot be struck by hostiles with melee or touch attacks but can be targeted by ranged attacks and ranged spells.

[Lerytha]

I agree with you completely, Elke.

But fly was only overpowered and broken to people who constantly misused it to strike at one mob only, or do silly things like that. To the majority of us, "fly" was a chance to have a safe journey over the mountains to avoid giants, or to move fast over the land without worrying about being attacked (except by wyverns). It was never intended I think, to be used as a way of making us immune to combat even when we're attacking things. When that happens, it became unfair to fighters, priests and thieves.

I'd hope it gets repaired soon. The idea of flying on a pegasus and being attacked by a snake seems a little silly, as does flying with the spell and getting attacked by a snake. I'd rather have the spell remain how it is, but add an OOC warning to the helpfile. Or code it so it can't be abused, so much.

That being said, if it has been changed because of previous abuse, and is now being worked on to ensure that abuse is impossible, I stand by that change. And I suggest we look around, find out who has abused the spell, and summarily lynch them for making the imms take this stance.

Its disappointing to have lost fly. I'll live with it, but as Elke said, hope the change comes sooner rather than later.

[Elke]

Added to this, without having used the 'descend' command, you can't use the 'get', 'fill', 'cook', 'ignite' or 'bury' commands.

[Mele]

I hardly believe being able to move at a quickened speed, faster rate and over water is "underpowered".

The fact wizards can fly at all puts then leagues above other classes in terms of lowbie travel.

It took me 30 minutes, 25 bandit scalps, and three needs to rest off the side of the road at near death with a rogue to travel from Zazzesspur to Waterdeep. It will take a wizard five minutes at most, with no inconvenience more than moving off the side of the road. Had I looked forward and moved off the side of the road without fly my stamina would have been drained quickly, and easily doubled the time of my travel.

Fact is, now wizards and priests able to fly will need to be more careful like every other class has had to be, without the penalty of losing stamina for their being careful.


I'm not out of favor of a change for a fly higher, fly lower sort of system, I think it's a great idea. But I really don't think wizards are put at a huge disadvantage because of this.

[Mask]

But! I do think that it should be, for example, possible to use Fly spells to scout, by flying overhead to look over the danger and report back. It also really, really shouldn't be possible for a mob with a melee weapon only to fight a wizard in the air slinging ranged spells. Much better would be to give them a ranged weapon. All my D&D characters, ever, have had a back up ranged weapon, even the ones with flaws in ranged attack, for just this reason.

It is nearly impossible to make every mob in the game react in a credible manner when faced with a flying wizard lobbing fireballs on top of them. Almost all should run away, and ideally come back with archers/their own wizards to blow the wizard away. Giants should lob massive boulders to knock the impertinent wizard out of the sky, drow should target them with 'dispel magic' followed by a good beating etc.

A fix along the lines of 'fly really high', or 'fly really low' would have to mean if you are flying so high that you are out of range of the mobs, then it is a two-way street and they are out of your range as well. However, there are other higher priority tasks on the table for now, so any changes in this area will not be for some time.

[Elke]

It makes sense, and thank you - I can see the difficulties involved. But I still have deep reservations about wizardly fleeing and so on. All the other classes have far, far better stamina and combined with the lack of the meditation skill I can see this making low levels very, very miserable.

[Gwain]

Speaking as someone that at one point or another made a habit of walking across the map (or limping, depending on preference) It is possible to map out routes that will result in little or no confrontations with hostile mobiles. It might make your trip a bit longer but it will make your journeys safer and probably a bit more scenic and interesting.

[Zorinar]

I understand fly will not be changing and this post is not to whine in any way, but I think there were some major misconceptions about fly. Understanding those reasons may fix the things that were really broken.

First, when you were flying and attack a mob or a player, you descended automatically in the fight and you were able to be hit by anything fighting you. There was no one sided slaughter. If another mob joined the fight, it was also able to hit you even if you were flying. One combat started, anything on the ground could hit you. The reason why you saw one sided slaughters, and you will still see one sided slaughters, is because some casters (priests and mages) were/are setting themselves on killmode nofight, they can still do this I assume. While flying, this made them untouchable but able to kill things at their leisure because it blocked the auto return strike from the mob or player. I know some priests (an probably mages) try to get around blade barrier or shock shields in this way as well. This was a major break in the code in my opinion and I think I posted it more than once before on the forums.

Flying in the air should also allow the user to control their height. Why wouldn't you be able to descend to pick something up, bury something, or whatnot if you can just land or lower yourself. Same goes when you try to talk with someone. I thought that was pretty much assumed. Why wouldnt they be able to fly several feet over a giants head so they cant be touched and see be able to see the ground? Giants are not 100 feet tall, and even though they are in the mountains, they stand on the ground.

Fly gave priests mostly, and mages, too, advantages to be sure. Priests get much fast movement with their air walk spell and the fly spell is available pretty early on for wizards. I think fly was mainly a way to travel without needing to fight if you didnt have to, and of course the stamina thing was there as well. I understand, however, that it must be weird when someone was performing actions in the presence of aggressive mobs, like bury and cook and whatnot.
I see now that the bury command required one to land, and I could see it being simple to add that requirement into cook, get, give, say and other commands. But in the end, if changing fly was to stop the easy killing of mobs, that wont stop it. Its killmode nofight in combat situations that needs to be looked it.

[Mele]

All the other classes have far, far better stamina

This is incorrect. CON and level are the only things which affect stamina. Wizards are by far not the only class not to pump CON, and even then some wizard specific guilds use CON as their main stat, thus have MORE stamina than other classes.

[Zorinar]

All the other classes have far, far better stamina

This is incorrect. CON and level are the only things which affect stamina. Wizards are by far not the only class not to pump CON, and even then some wizard specific guilds use CON as their main stat, thus have MORE stamina than other classes.

Invokers need CON to join but its not a very high requirement at all. By far, not the main stat for me, and probably not for any other invoker. I dont even think I needed to put anything extra in to it to join the guild. I am still confused why wizard guilds have some stat requirement like con, you would think that INT would be a prereq, not con or dex or whatever the other guilds require. But Elke is right that wizards have less stamina that others because they dont put stats into con like others do. But that is for combat reasons that others do it. I flew from berdusk to waterdeep and I almost considered resting because the little bugger bandits actually started tiring me out:) And I am in the guild that required the CON stat.

[Kallias]

I see the necessity to remove the old fly. To be fair, it's perfectly powerful just as a utility spell. But wouldn't a wonderful compromise be that the person flying wouldn't be able to attack the people on the ground (something like the peaceknot Drew used that also effects spells)? That way it could still have use as a scouting device.

[Saranya]

I agree with Elke and Lerytha and also think this is another change which falls hardest on newbies and spellcasters (who already have it rough.) Changing duration was fine, but why the combat change? If it was because of people abusing the combat attacks, then I think Kallias' suggestion is an excellent solution.

Perhaps older players who know the vmaps like the back of our hands can think up work-arounds, but that is rather OOC driving in my mind. Honestly, I don't see that anything that makes travel, scouting and exploration harder (or devalues the usefulness of mages) is really encouraging to the RP side of things. And a bit of an aside, what about the drop in skill betters through usage? (I had thought increasing them was one of the better changes in recent years! )

Serious question... has there been a recent admin decision to make this game a lot harder code-wise? For me this doesn't increase the fun in a "challenge" sort of way, it just turns a fun game into a chore.

[Gwain]

Perhaps older players who know the vmaps like the back of our hands can think up work-arounds, but that is rather OOC driving in my mind. Honestly, I don't see that anything that makes travel, scouting and exploration harder (or devalues the usefulness of mages) is really encouraging to the RP side of things.

There are in character maps available for sale in the game that link to the maps featured on this website. Using them would be rather more ic than simply casting fly and speeding across the map directly in my opinion. However, for everyone that has trouble with maps (A few people do, which is fine) There are safe ic modes of transit like the caravans and boats. It all depends on preference and the amount of time you want to dedicate to roleplay. If you can't dedicate the time then the new changes would probably seem worse or more taxing then they are.