Elven Language (OOC considerations)

[Lerytha]

Good day!

As a keen elf roleplayer, I absolutely support people finding new and interesting ways of making your character seem more realistically elven.

Although only a small part of the thread I am about to link, nonetheless the issue came up there, and I think it'd be good to have a specific thread to deal with the issue. For posterity, here is the old thread link: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3438&hilit=titles

So the point of the thread.

1. Should we use "elven" words in the MUD, when we have a language scrambler?

I am split, here. As a roleplayer of an elf, I occasionally enjoy putting in the very odd elven word. My ideal compromise-judgement would be to say, allow the odd word. But to ensure that players of elves are always prepared to say OOCly before any IC reaction, "Oh, btw, that word is an elven title of endearment". Very occasionally I have seen an IC reaction which I dislike.

Two elves talking. One uses an elvish word. The other one blinks IC, and says, "Huh?" The one who used the word looks peculiarly at the other one and says, "Erm... elvish? For food?" If we use the odd elvish word, I think both sides should be prepared to take a pause, and go, osay Hi, what's that word mean? And the other person osays, Oh! nps! It means "food"! Sorry!

My thinking is that the odd word is acceptable, but that there should be some clear guidance so people know they can always ask and should always be able to expect a (polite, informative) answer.

2. If so, should we ensure there is a MUD-endorsed particular link so we're all singing from the same hymn sheet?

I don't think there we should use any of the Tolkien elvish translators out there. But I think this one is quite definitive and is focused entirely on elven from the Forgotten Realms setting: http://www.candlekeep.com/library/artic ... on_elf.htm

Conclusion

What do people think?

[Horace]

I don't think it matters as long as you tell the people playing with you, out of character, what the words mean...which would be a pain in the caboose.

I personally wouldn't like it if people used elven words and didn't tell me what they meant, when my character knows elven.

[Lathlain]

I think Horace has pretty much nailed it on the head, as far as my opinion goes - though even with people who I'm relatively certain are familiar with Elven, I'd still generally default to the common translation if only for the sake of unseen observers (immortals, sneaky types, scryers etc).

A generic 'refer to this for translations page' is not a bad thought, but it rather relies on people being familiar with the site (either through the forum or the help files), and opens the temptation for people to go wild with lots of words that need translating all at once. It's a slippery slope, and one that's probably best worth avoiding - if only for our sanity!

[Keltorn]

Telling people what the words mean might also not always be possible. I can't be the only one that's seen Elven words popping up in titles (the thread Lerytha linked to), character descriptions (tattoos), etc.

In the occasional bit of conversation, fixing misunderstandings is as easy as an OSAY, though it might not come quickly enough to avoid embarassing your fellow Elven RPer.

To address your second point, Lerytha, I have a different dictionary that I look at. I did a quick comparison, and it looks like they're different. Races of the Wild has some Elven phrases which cannot be translated with yours or mine, and I'm sure the Tolkien side would be another different set of translations. So... Yeah, how do we even begin to know which translation of a fake language is correct? That could be tricky.

[Harroghty]

I agree and believe that the ultimate goal here is for us all to enjoy meaningful role-play. If you are using things to enhance the role-play that are accessible to others, then I think they are fair game. So, in this case, if you've posted your resource then I believe that it's fair game unless an elf PC (or anyone) says, "Hey, can we cut that out right now?"

[Kelemvor]

My general rule of thumb with things like this is that it always be inclusive and never something which makes another player feel isolated or demeaned.

On the one hand - if someone is playing a particular class, race or faith they should take steps to learn about it and not be saying 'You can't use something I don't understand through coded language'

On the other - it is unfair to expect all players to have access to the same level of resource or have the same ability to adopt and use such knowledge.

This applies to many things, not just language, and each of us has a responsibility as both the user and the target to ensure it doesn't spoil the escapism or fun of playing on FK.

Taking some of the points above - access to information, agreement on what is appropriate and ensuring players have access to it...

Why not create a forum post where elven words and phrases are discussed and agreed upon? This can then be made into a help file and added to the elven help files.

On a cautionary note - I do not want to see whole conversations constructed in this way, but the occasional use of important words should always be a bonus.

I would recommend sticking mainly with D&D sources rather than Tolkien so things like
Tel'Quessir - The People; Priest - Amandil; Istar - wizard; Taur'Ohtar - Ranger (Lit. Forest warrior); Nim'Ohtar - Paladin (Lit. White warrior) are acceptable.
Whereas translating 'green paths and the wind at your back' or 'a star shine on our next meeting' wholly into elven would not be.

http://www.grey-company.org/Circle/language/phrase.htm

[Caelnai]

Everything in moderation? The few times in-game elvish became excessive, I always found that a polite otell alleviated any confusion.

I've always felt titles are different since they're viewable by elvish and non-elvish, and are (somewhat) static. Though I did change my elvish title when asked!

A bit off-topic,...many of the oldest drow still use drowish titles which I love. As Kelemvor suggests, my google searches on those led to many references, which on drow are harder to find and very important to have! I really appreciate and thank the players who spent the time to develop those titles to enhance their background.

[Larethiel]

I concur with Kelemvor on this issue I usually use only some elven words in my rp, words that are things like titles/forms of adressing people/insults/ranks/job titles/races/etc., things that are not too difficult to understand.

I don't see why we should translate lengthy sayings into elven when they are already translated into english and thus comprehendible for everyone. From another rp-game I used to play before FK, I know that a translator for drowlanguage exists, you type the english sentence and get the translation into drow. And the constant copy/pasting from rp-screen into dictionary and vice versa was one of the very annoying and distracting things to do, it just distracts too much from the rp at hand.

My 5 Euro-Cents.

Best regards.

[Zorinar]

When an elf character is created in the game, they are born with the elven language grandmastered. When people throw around elven words from language sources they are circumventing the system and causing headaches for those people that now have to do lengthy searches for the words people are throwing around, only to get conflicting information from different sources. The mechanics are already in the game for the language and since elven words should never cause confusion for an elf, why not just use the game mechanics and switch to elven? In fact, that is what you are doing when you throw around elven words anyway.. you are speaking elven. Using the game's system, there will be flawless communication with those that understand the language without the ooc headache and a true IC RP will be commencing.

[Dovan]

Mmmmm.... I'm in the same boat as Lare I think to the most part, as are most (personal belief, can't back this up). Most of the words I use are quite common (like Tel'Quessir and it's various forms for subrace) to material I've read. At times I'll use titles or other more less known things, but usually when I'm in the company of another that I'm quite sure knows what I'm saying.

That being said, I can understand the frustration of not understanding a full out sentence. Do we need a translator to fix this problem when it's presented, no I don't think so. I think a simple reply to the person in question along the lines of "Please, there's no need for such formalities" would get the point across easy that you'd rather just plain speak instead.