Much is a matter of perception and point of view, so I'll first start by bringing up two topics.
Low levels. Currently, low levels (levels under 10) are considered worthless. The most visible sign of this is that people try to get to level 10 as quickly as possible and zoom past the first 9 "level up"s. I believe that this is cause by several perceptions that might not always be correct:
1 - You need to be level 10 to specialize your character.
2 - You are not worth anything under level 10, you are useless.
3 - You cannot do anything under level 10 because you are too weak and do not have enough move points.
First ... why is it bad, and second ... what we did to fix this wrong perception. Why is it bad to consider those first 10 levels as useless levels? Because they represent one fifth of the total progression of a character. If players consider those first 10 levels as useless, we might as well make everybody start at level 10 or, equivalently, drop the maximum level down to 40. Basically, what is wrong with this perception holds in a few words: we are missing out on an opportunity to see the character evolve.
The obvious fix to this is: incite people to take their time during those first 10 levels and to take the time to see their characters progress. How? Well ... most likely by giving them something interesting to do at those levels. We have already tried to do that (though not enough, apparently): reusing the three points raised above, we get ...
1 - You can join a guild as well as a faith before level 10.
2 - We have introduced various ways in which even low level characters can make themselves useful; consider the precision forge for example, or something new being added to the game right now. More could/should be added too.
3 - There was a project to increase starting move points (I'm not sure whether it has already been hard coded or not). We added several low-level quests, including poop-gathering, express deliveries, and more could be added. Besides, it would be good to find a way to incite players to start meeting others before they reach level 10.
Training and roleplaying. It's the source of a profound debate even amongst the Staff members. I can only give my position, and it is the following one. Most of the time spent by a player on FK can be divided into two parts (which are maybe not mutually exclusive) : roleplaying and training. I insert in the "roleplaying" box all the activities that consist in interacting with others [including training or questing along with others, as long as there are some say/smote/interactions going on and the whole thing is not reduced to hack/slash/move]; and I put in the "training" box the (generally solo) activities that consist in using the code again and again in order to get skill increases.
For example ...
- staying on the Market Square silently without doing any smote = neither roleplaying nor training
- staying on the Market Square silently without doing any smote to get your Common up to GM = training
- staying on the Market Square and giving directions to newcomers/chatting with other adventurers = roleplaying (*)
- going to Hartsvale with a friend and killing giants, while joking, commenting, smoting, interacting from time to time = roleplaying
- going to Hartsvale with a friend and limiting the interactions to "I need meditate", "heal me", "buff me" = training
(*) I have a personal bias that I would classify flirting for hours on and doing other "girlish" and non-heroic interactions as "neither roleplaying nor training", but others might disagree with me.
Between those two activies, I see "training" as an occupation that benefits only you character, and I see "roleplaying" as an occupation that benefits not only your character but also other characters/players, that is, as an occupation that makes the mud better as a whole. "Training" already has its own reward : you get more powerful. "Roleplaying" has never been associated to any reward, except some titles or positions in churches (but that does not apply to everybody).
The main point I would like to bring across is that (most) players have a limited time to spend online. (1) Some want to spend all this time training. Those should find another mud - because FK is RP-enforced. (2) Some want to spend some of this time training and the rest roleplaying, or vice-versa. They are welcome on FK and their playstyle should allow them to achieve things. Finally, (3) some want to spend most/all of their time roleplaying. They too should be welcome on FK and their playstyle should allow them to achieve things.
The desire to have a character who can stand his own, who is powerful enough, is not something found only amongst players of type (2). Some "roleplayers" (that's how I am going to call players of category 3) also want to have powerful characters. Now, the main question is this: Why should they (category 3 people) be forced to do something they do not find fun to achieve their goal? Considering that their favourite activity is one of the most rewarding for the mud as a whole (i.e., the mud gains more from a "roleplayer" than from a "trainer"), it makes no sense at all to force them to spend their time on a "sub-par" activity that, to boost, they do not want to do.
Considering this, I find that even "roleplayers" (category 3 people) should be able to obtain powerful characters, and not have to fear to be pkilled by the first badguy that crosses their path.
Now, there are several ways to do this. Giving "skill points" to reward X hours of roleplaying is one way; that's the first solution I suggested. That being said, what happens on the mud is the result of a discussion and I guess that nodoby always gets what they want. The end result of the discussion that followed, the "compromise" was to create the notion of "Casting level" that would reduce the importance of skill level and make the base level count for more. Is this a perfect solution? I don't think so, but that's at least a compromise that kind of goes in the right direction.
Now to answer a few points more precisely ...
Telk wrote:I recently decided to make a new wizard so I start him out and everything, everything's great, I start killing dummies. I jump through the first 4 levels fine, great. Then I realize my exp has dropped to an absolute CRAWL, I mean I was killing dummies for at least 30 minutes and got about half a level to level 6...
Starting at level 6 (I think), an "anti-category 1" formula triggers. It's actually not a novelty : that's something that has been in place for a long time.
Basically, the idea is this: Let's say we assume that a level 25 character should have spend approximately 40 hours online to reach that level. John is a level 25 fighter.
- If he has less than 30 hours online, the experience he gains will be reduced by 50%.
- If he has between 30 and 50 hours online, the experience he gains will not be modified.
- If he has more than 50 hours online, the experience he gains will be increased by an additional 50%.
(I picked up those numbers randomly, by the way ... just to get the idea across).
That actually joins up with my note about the low levels above. Instead of rush-training, take 1 hour away to go and meet people, explore an area, complete a quest or two ... then go back to training and you will find that things will progress much more smoothly.
This is made even harder by the fact that wizards cannot rely on their spells at all, we don't get meditate until level 14. In the old days this would be fine, now with the new system in it takes considerably longer to regain a spell, a spell that will most likely miss it's touch, or if it does hit do mediocre damage. I know that wizards aren't the only ones feeling this, but they are definitely the ones affected the most.
Giving meditate at a lower level is a possible option. Or decrease the spell regeneration time and keep meditate as a higher level option.
With the new experience changes making experience gain much slower and the new spell system it's absolute murder on wizards trying to get through level 1 through 9, and most other characters at those levels.
Experience gain rate has not been decreased as a whole. Though I'll readily admit that there might be a communication problem: we should make it clear that rush-training past the first levels will only lead to frustration and that players (especially newcomers) should take the time to see their characters progress and do other things than just training.
It basically forces people to go out and hack and slash mobs for hours and hours just to get a few levels, that is if you want a semi-decent character.
Then I guess you agree with me that it should be possible to get a decent character without having to go through the 'extensive training' occupation.
It used to be that you could get the levels fairly easy and if you wanted a strong character then you'd just train, that was your choice and I thought it was fine.
I really do not like the "If you wanted a strong character, then you'd just train" part. I believe that it should be possible to get a valid character without extensive training.
Now I'm having to go out and kill things when I don't want to kill, I want to be with other characters RPing, but now I'm being forced to kill.
Once again, a problem of communication. Because the solution, as I outlined above, is actually to be with other characters and roleplay, to spend a few hours away from training before going back to it. Ironic, isn't it?
I'd just like to have a character I can RP with and be moderately strong without having to pour a crapload of hours into him. I don't have all the time in the world to play the MUD and when I do get on I don't want to hack n slash just to reach the level I want to RP him at.
We agree on that I think.
On the old experience system this was easy, you could reach the level that you wanted to, (and I'm not saying level 50, I mean like level 20, 30, or 40 I've stopped almost all of my characters at a certain level cap, just so I could slow down on his training and concentrate on his RP and him gradually getting stronger, I wanted to RP being a weaker level 30 or so, yea I COULD'VE went up to level 50 but I chose not to and I think that should be up to the player, not the code and how much you've hack n slashed your way to get there). If you wanted a stronger character, you could go out and train up his skills, and I think that way worked the best.
I can understand the desire to reach level 50; that's natural. But we also have to get a broader point of view: once you reach level 50, there's next to nothing left for you. Getting your skills increased can be fine to some people, but that's not very satisfying for some. So, instead of rushing towards level 50, the message we mean is "Take the time to enjoy the other levels, before you reach the end."
Which brings me to another point, and I'm not trying to be rude or point any fingers here. But hear me out: It seems like ever since the new administration came in that training has been seen as a taboo, that you shouldn't train too much, that it's abusing area code and that it's taking away from time RPing.
Raiding the same area over and over is something that I think shouldn't be seen on a roleplay-enforced mud; there is nothing roleplay in killing all the giants of Hartsvale, waiting til repop and starting over. Training "ICly" is all fine though; that would mean go to an area of your level, possible along with other people (which allows you to deal with higher level mobs and thus gain more experience), and do not "camp" it. Let's keep the "camping" to the roleplay-less MMO"RPG".
Now I think it's quite the opposite, people like to have strong characters, that's granted, if you want a strong character you'd train for that character, if you didn't you'd RP, that's great it's your choice but don't complain when the fighter of Cyric comes and messes your crap up, that's how it is in life! Some people are stronger than you, it actually makes the MUD more diverse and brings about RP. It seems like every day it just gets closer and closer to every character becoming exactly the same strength, exactly the same prowess in battle.
I wholeheartedly disagree with this black-and-white vision. I find it unjustifiable and inconsistent that training would be the only way to power. Every adventurer ICly spends some time training; and every adventurer ICly spends some time socializing/interacting. The thing is, the player chooses what part of the character's life they want to play when they are online, or - more precisely - how much of each parts they want to play. I am not saying that the end result should be totally independent on what the player does; nor am I saying that all the characters should be powerful [thus the skill point distribution idea: make the character you want!], but it should not be two completely separate paths roleplay -> your character sucks // training -> your character is powerful.
This is emphasized with the recent wizard change in the power of wizard's spells. Now wizards are just more alike in strength, it SHOULDN'T be like that.
Why is that? Why should those who decide to spend 90% of their online time training get a more powerful character than those who decide to spend 90% of their online time interacting, socializing, welcoming other players, enriching the mud as a whole?
It was also emphasized in the removal of the Shadowlands which was really a key area for melee fighters training.
The area was removed not only because it was camped/raided over and over by characters. It was removed because it did not make much sense on FK. Goody-goody white guys against evil black guys with shadowy things in-between? Come on, I believe that it doesn't really meet our current standards for areas. Areas should help support roleplay by giving some background or interesting backstory:
Those goblins have once again kidnapped Mrs Thann! By the way, did you know that they once attempted to summon a big demon of Kurtulmak to invade Golden Oaks, and that is how and why the gnomes made their presence known, to seek help? Some dead followers of Tempus have chosen to remain behind as undead to offer deadly combat training to mortals ... but have they really chosen to do so, or are they forced to be undead because of some sort of destiny that they still need to accomplish? ...
Give me a night of sitting in the square listening to two people talk about the books they read...eh it can be fun and generate some good RP but...it's two people talking about the books they read. Now give me a battle-hardened cyricist that just killed a faithful follower of Torm on the road outside of Shadowdale, and that sounds like it'll be the kind of RP that when you're in it, your hands are literally shaking and you have adrenaline pumping in your veins, THAT is the reason why I play this game for that great RP that just makes you go, 'Wow, that was incredible'.
Right. And your point is? Roleplay is not restricted to chatting on the square, it never was. The interaction with a Cyricist PC and a Tormite PC is roleplay too.
Let's consider three examples (including the two you give).
A - chatting about books on the Market Square.
B - intense meeting between a Cyricist and a Tormite
C - killing the evil black guys from Shadowlands over and over
If I was asked to classify those three activities, I would say A and B are "roleplay"; C is training. You seem to be saying that A is roleplay, authorized, and unfun while B is not possible but the most fun ... and somehow imply that B and C are similar activities which should be treated equally?
If you absolutely hate training, then don't train, sit in WD and RP, that's great and I encourage you to do that.
In the current situation, this is just hypocritical, because you imply
"but then your character will suck", and that's the part that I find problematic. Now, I agree that it's not that clear-cut that that there are interesting interactive roleplays and boring ones. Like I wrote above, I tend to find flirting and "light" roleplays boring, while I like roleplays that consist in ethos/divine philosophy debates, or discussions based on the background of the world or on recently completed quests, or challenging discussions with clever wordplay. But to everyone their tastes.
I'd love to hear everyone's comments on this subject. Really why is training on FK so frowned upon?
I can only answer for me. I don't frown upon IC training. I frown upon OOC training (camping, raiding the same area over and over, using unchallenging mobs to avoid having to group up or to be sure to get the biggest reward with the less danger). And it's not so much frowning upon training than
finally getting to reward other occupations (which, by the way, happen to be more beneficial for the mud) as a whole.
Spaki wrote:I agree that the "spellpower" change makes wizards' training spells mostly a moot point (making only level and items define how "powerful" a wizard is).
That's not exact. The influence of skill level has been reduced, in that it is no longer the ONLY thing that is taken into account. But it's not true to say that only level and items define how powerful a wizard's spells are.
Spaki wrote:It also further encourages creating a mage over a specialist, since spellpower benefits more spells for the mage and puts all their spells at a level comparable to even ones a specialist has spent time training.
I can understand that it's an important topic for you, but it's not really the point of this discussion. That being said, I believe that the mage vs specialist debate is one we should (re)open.
