Code Updates

[Selveem]

Much like the "Area Changes" post, I would like to suggest a "code change" thread.

Many changes are occuring on FK. It's hard to keep track of which things have been changed for most casual players. I would think this especially so for those who have played FK for a very long time.

Some disagreement a player has with a specific part of the way the code works may be changed the very next day without the player's knowledge. Said player may continue to be annoyed with that specific part of the code and the lack of response on it and continue posting in favor of something to be 'fixed' which already has.

The divide between the 'players (including Imms) in the know' and those lacking such means of acquiring information is a much wider gap than most would believe. Even long-term players may not know about specific things that have changed that may be considered to some as very basic.

For instance: There was a point in time when players would repeatedly fumble their weapons even if they were GM in said weapon. Nowadays it seems far, far less common. There was nothing posted to my recollection regarding this change for the players such as myself who don't have access to the coders forums (if there was even anything posted there).

I would think this a good idea to keep innocent ignorance (and not used in a demeaning/insulting way) from the boards.

[Elenthis]

I was told almost two months ago not to use "quicken spell" as it was temporarily code abuse. This thread leads me to ask (and be the first) is this still considered to be so?

[Orplar]

O_o I didnt know that.

[Elenthis]

Is anything further being said here, out of curiosity? If not, thats fine, but it would be totally awsome if we could get some sort of definitive "Yes, this is a good thread, heres some possible answers" or "No. This is a good thread, but it takes time from the ACTUAL implementations, which will be explained when the time is right" or something to that affect.

Love always,
Me.

[Japcil]

Hard to say how practical it really is. I would see it as a major update tracker, ie revised saves, spell messages etc. But If Mask goes in and changes a few formulas around for better balance or makes other minor tweaks I cant see having to force him to document it for us.

[Selveem]

I would think that any coders would prefer to keep the players informed rather than hear them complain repeatedly about something that's probably already fixed?

[Japcil]

Of course we would tell you when something was fixed, I believe that thread has already been established.

[Selveem]

My apologies, let me explain:

When I say fixed, I mean something I percieve as broken. I don't specifically mean a bug. It can be what I consider a broken process, an undesirable effect and/or affect, a code bug, etc.

[Japcil]

It is hard to say, I am on the fence. I think it is agreeable that major updates are already taken care of and posted about when implemented.

I don't know about others that write programs that play here but from the discussions I have participated elsewhere this too is a touchy subject. Some coders feel that you should just accept that they changed something and that if you cant figure out what it is than telling you will make no difference. I do not agree with that. It makes it harder when a team manages a code base.

The other thing many do is add comment lines into the code base, something very commonly done. Only people with granted permissions see those comments and what and when things changed.

To really understand what your asking, you need to see the other side. Now Mask has not responded to this thread, heck he cant read them all, but you are asking someone to document every move they make so you can read about it. The biggest problem to that is that most people read about something and complain about it. Here is an example:

Mask posts 'I have changed gnomes to -2 str and +2 wis.
Japcil replies 'Oh come on dude what the heck they had it bad enough as it was'

Now here I havent even logged into the game and experienced the changes to truly tell if my character is unbalanced. His changes may have made things way better, but I didnt know that because I just assumed he just has a thing out for gnomes.

I know that not all players are like this, but game communities face these issues everyday, I find that if you trust your admins are fair and work to balance everything, you might not need to know about every little detail that goes into the code base.

Also just a final closing thought: Currently you can easily tell if something changes really, the command time show the last startup if it was recent most likely some new code has made its way in. Now if you are against this change most likely you will post a discussion anyways so in a sense we created more work for Mask and still end up discussing the topic.

[Raona]

I think I'm just putting what Japcil said another way, but to my mind Mask is very efficient but has limited time. I'd prefer he spend his limited time coding, rather than explaining what he's done. Often, small changes or corrections have unanticipated side effects; seemingly simple problems are very difficult to fix, or seemingly complicated things are easily done. So while I appreciate (and share) a desire to know how hard something would be to do, whether it is being considered or in process, and so on, I see why it isn't routine. Answering those questions often requires effort and time roughly equivalent to trying to do it.

[Gwain]

Mask posts 'I have changed gnomes to -2 str and +2 wis.
Japcil replies 'Oh come on dude what the heck they had it bad enough as it was'

Now here I havent even logged into the game and experienced the changes to truly tell if my character is unbalanced. His changes may have made things way better, but I didnt know that because I just assumed he just has a thing out for gnomes.

Well said! I've been mostly silent on threads like this but I might as well pipe in an opinion. Bear in mind this is my interpretation which loosely mirrors the one based on my own experiences and the clear and well explained one from Japcil.

I think this is a very good example of why not all code changes need to be documented outside of the circles that manage and work with them. Some things get interpreted incorrectly and cannot be explained in a satisfactory manner to some players. I respect and trust the coders and their councils to do things that are in the best interest of the game. And I trust that any major fixes and changes that cannot be discovered icly ingame will be announced. The best we can do is make bugs known to them then wait patiently for them to be fixed. I think the rule is with a static game format; the more you fix something, the more new problems and encounters are fixed as they go along.

As always I caution patience and understanding. Just because you don't know every detail in game that does not mean you have to stop enjoying or fretting over the elements. Just relax and enjoy.

[Selveem]

Japcil, I see your point, however.

Let's change the circumstances. Let's say Mask didn't post and I logged on my Gnome that I've had for a niiiice long time. A character that I brought up and spent a lot of time learning, training, and equipping.

I call these "legacy characters." Selveem is the only character I _really_ care about, so I consider him my only legacy character on FK.

Now, to the point. If I built Selveem up a certain way and I trained all his stats to how they would be in my mind, skilled him up and gave him appropriate feats that compliment his stats, I'd be pretty annoyed if I logged in and found that his strength dropped from Titanic to the next level down.

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Me: WTF? This is stupid. I built this character this way with the trust in the Admins that the race was already set properly to begin with. Why would this be launched then changed. Why aren't people's pre-existing characters taken into consideration? Why weren't we at least notified that this would be happening? Now, I can't even move because all the crap I'm carrying is suddenly hindering me a LOT more (because I was size small to begin with so have a lower carrying capacity anyhow).

Admin/Player Council: Selveem, please understand that this change was necessary to standardize the races to third edition. We are aware that this may be a problem and we'll do everything we can to help you settle in, but this should be considered a permanent change. Is there anything you need help with?

Me: Uh, yeah. How much was my strength points dropped by FK terms?

Admin/Player Council: Unfortunately it is current policy that we do not divulge specific stats. Is there something else we can help you with?

Me: No.

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I'd be pretty damned furious, as a player, to see that my efforts have been completely undermined at this point and that I'd not even been respected enough (or the remainder of the player base) to not have been informed.

The problem is, currently, what Japcil suggests:

Some coders feel that you should just accept that they changed something and that if you cant figure out what it is than telling you will make no difference.

The problem here is that most of us DO notice a difference, but can't put our finger on it because we're denied any information. I will say right now that most of the time when I have sought reasoning for issues I've encountered, I've been stonewalled with 'policy.'

To this day, I've still never received a response as to why Selveem's AC was so much worse off than Aldren's when both have the same dex, both have at least 15 or more Wis, same race, both naked, both under the effects of no spells, and standing (NOT in the same room, pervs).

This is the sort of thing that frustrates many players. Especially older players who have been around a long time and feel like their characters they worked so hard on are crumbling at the foundations.

Blind faith is not something I, as a person, commit to. I'm a skeptic and very much prone to fact-finding (my personality trait that I eluded to that gets me into so much hot water). To suggest that the players should just trust is easier to preach than follow.

[Rhianon]

Bravo! Well said!

[Elenthis]

I didnt mean to re-open a can of worms...and I actually miss some of the clandestine behavior in the mud that gave it that difference between 3.5 and SOLID RP. But that being said, I still dont know whats going on with quicken spell. I use that as an example, because its a good one. I was told by an imm that it was currently code abuse to use it, and no one else seems to know anything about it. Further, I'm down a feat that I could have used for teacher ect. No big deal to me, I'd just like to be on a fair playing field is all. I think this issue relates to many in reguards to

"This is a problem it is either being fixed, not being fixed, in line, or never going to be fixed"

Thats all I thought this suggestion was about.

[Dalvyn]

Re: quicken spell. As far as I know, you can use it. The code might not be exactly like in 3.5 (e.g., only 1 quickened spell per round), but it's close enough I guess. Once again, the only case where it might be unfair to use it is in a PvP fight.

Re: code update. This is no one-person game. I believe that anybody who makes significative changes to the game should make it known in one way or another. (And I'm not pointing my 10 fingers at Mask here, I'm pointing some of them at me too - see the earthstone thread). Yes, we have limited time, but there are ways to minimize the time spent on commenting changes. People like Japcil and Raona (I think) would be more than glad to keep the playerbase informed of the major changes for example, on the forum and/or in the in-game help files.

It's mostly a matter of (a) knowing how to deal with the inevitable complaints that will follow, a good percentage of them being based on uninformed opinions with no testing, (b) dealing with people who complain because "their" overpowered options have been toned down, and (c) disciplining oneself to always make sure to report changes in one way or another.

I'm not saying that it's easy or that it should be done from today on, but that's how a mud would ideally work in my mind.

[Hviti]

Also re quickened spell:

I think it's fixed. If you have it on and try to cast multiple times (more than you can/should) in a round, you get a message that says you can't do so.

[Lathander]

ANNOUNCEMENT: Mask will be updating the forums.

[Japcil]

Since were trying to give a heads up Lathander, I heard we are removing the sun from the code, you might need to update your portfolio and remove all instances affected or they will simply omit when we update the system.

[Balek]

Please tell me the doesn't mean we're turning into a World of Darkness MUD.

[Japcil]

It was a joke towards Lathander's player. Sorry for the thread derailment.