Uncoded Gods and Clerical Domains

Glim · Post by **Glim** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:32 pm

Hey guys,

Just wanted to start up a discussion on clerics that wish to follow uncoded gods and giving them a similar coded god's spells. Many racial gods have their human equivalents and many human gods have similar spheres. Examples of such could be-

Silvanus - Chauntea, Mielikkie, Malar
Red Knight - Tempus
Good dwarven gods - Moradin
Evil dwarven gods - Moradin, Bane, Cyric, etc
(Same goes for other racial gods)
Azuth - Mystra
Deneir & Milil - Oghma
Lliira - Maybe Tymora?
Hoar - Mask

You get the picture

Perhaps an uncoded could be set as following this certain coded god, given the uncoded's symbol, and put into a faith list category of uncoded? Alternatives?

So what would be the best way to do this? Would it be a good idea to do this?

Discuss

Feedback is always welcome,

Horace · Post by **Horace** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:35 pm

i love the idea, if it's possible.

Tobias · Post by **Tobias** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:07 pm

I kinda got confused. You mean that if i wanted to follow this uncoded god I'd be set to this other god but have a holysymbol of a coded one?

Glim · Post by **Glim** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:15 pm

What I mean is...

Lets say you wanted to be a cleric of the Red Knight.
You would be set as following Tempus, thus getting Tempus's clerical spells, but would have a holy symbol of the Red Knight.

Tortus · Post by **Tortus** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:18 pm

OOCly (mechanics-wise) a Tempurian, ICly (roleplay-wise) a Red Knightian.
Simple as cake.

Horace · Post by **Horace** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:49 pm

But you still wouldn't be able to supplicate items - which may be the hard part if you're setting them as having a certain deities spells.

Tobias · Post by **Tobias** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:56 pm

Ah yes I get it! -chuckle- Hmmm. Sounds good and would fit really well! For clerics to have else a cleric of an uncoded diety is just blah.

Mele · Post by **Mele** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:56 pm

Lliira = Waukeen

When Waukeen was gone Lliira took some of her domain in. :)

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:07 am

I actually resorted to using coded deities on mobiles in my elven areas, to reflect the domains that those clerics of different Elven deities would cast if fighting.

The only problem being able to do this for PCs is that all stuff for a particular deity - including their domains and spells, supplication items, favor settings, etc, are controlled by the deity file for the given deity. To set a person at Tempus to serve Red Knight, for example, would not only give them domain spells, but also allow them to gain favor for Tempus' favor acts, supplicate for Tempurian items, recall to Tempurian temples, etc.

Glim · Post by **Glim** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:14 am

Kregor wrote:To set a person at Tempus to serve Red Knight, for example, would not only give them domain spells, but also allow them to gain favor for Tempus' favor acts, supplicate for Tempurian items, recall to Tempurian temples, etc.

As for favor, wouldnt you think that on a general scale, whatever gave a Tempurian favor would also give a Red Knight favor?

As for the supplication, maybe there could be a flag that wouldnt allow supplicate recall, object, or ressurection?

I always assumed that people who played uncoded gods assume it will be a hard roleplay and are trusted to be responsible. So thus while this would make it easier spellwise and perhaps favor wise, they would also have some rules that they need to follow.

I know this wouldnt be right for every deity, but perhaps it could be called a crude middle ground between uncoded god players getting no support and playing a coded god.

Horace · Post by **Horace** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:14 am

and if you're gonna go that far to change those things, you may as well just code new faiths in. so it may be more of a pipe dream than it sounds

Oghma · Post by **Oghma** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:49 am

I can debate both positions on this. One position for this is that it would be true to domains. One position against would be that not all deities are alike. If you are faith coded you can supplicate for deity items and it would not make sense to have them in the first place unless you served that deity. It can't be done for all gods...Hoar for example is closer to Besheba then to Mask, Gargauth closer to Bane etc. I don't think we need to grant this to unreg faiths...unless the deity in question agrees to it or it is a special situation. In the old days it used to be that we wanted to fill registered faiths and we still do, but those that seek unreg faiths should understand that beyond special circumstances they will not be getting the same benifits as registered ones.

Alvirin · Post by **Alvirin** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:58 pm

A middle point in the road could be only assign domains to the uncoded deities, disregarding supplicated objects or favor.

Oghma · Post by **Oghma** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:46 pm

A problem with that is that there are over fifty gods in FR and it might not be possible to set up preexisting domains without a hardcode change to the current system. I'll come out and say it in far more plainer words than before: I think that this can be evaluated on a case by case basis, otherwise if you are going to follow an unregistered deity please expect not to recieve as many benefits as a regular coded deity follower, unless a very special situation or case is put forward by said deity.

Ceara · Post by **Ceara** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:15 pm

I just wanted to respond to the comment that the Red Knight is the same as tempus.
No she isn't, she is strategy and tactics, not war itself and battle.
They go hand in and and she is under Tempus but she is not the same. She expects different things of her followers than Tempus does. If you like I can haul out faiths and pantheons to list the differences.

I understand what you wish to accomplish but as oghma said it is known that if you follow an uncoded god, you don't get the same benefits of following one that is coded. It's been this way as long as I can remember. The only class that really depends on the god being coded are priests and maybe druids but i'm not certain about the druids. If you want to follow an uncoded god perhaps choose a different class.

I think the suggestion is a good one if you have had a cleric etc... that has been played for a while and their rp landed them in following an uncoded deity then perhaps put forth an app to have this done so they might have spells and still follow the uncoded deity.

To try to make correlations with each character and the god that is closest to the uncoded one is tedious and subjective. Also the supplicate objects will be different and if the deity who you are 'coded' under doesn't happen to know you follow someone else, they may end up giving you a hard time about going against their ethos as it would show them as your deity in the files. Imms are people too remember?

Personally I think it would be unfair to those that have played here for years, sacrificing the perks of having a coded deity for the sake of rp to suddenly have it changed.

One solution for this would be to add yet another flag to a player and show coded deity and non coded deity which could also be shown in your score but it is a lot of work. I think it is better at this point as a case by case basis.

Amalia · Post by **Amalia** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:40 pm

First, I'd just like to note that I've heard a whole lot of "the old players are giving up all these other perks in exchange for having access to these uberstatsandmagicitems that newer players can't get." That said, I don't think it's quite right for "old players didn't have it" to be any sort of reason something shouldn't be changed, especially if those old players will get it too once the change is brought in.

I completely agree that uncoded deities need to be properly differentiated from similar coded deities-- if there weren't enough difference to be important, players wouldn't be following the uncoded deity anyway-- but if there's a way we can make playing a priest of an uncoded deity feasible without making the character mechanically quasi-useless, I think it would be a great improvement. I don't know enough about the faith system to discuss the technicalities, but I'm fully behind a change that would make it as easy to play a priest of an uncoded deity as any other class. It sounds like there would still be plenty of really nice faith perks uncoded followers would be missing out on, so I can't see there suddenly being a huge rush to play uncoded priests and leave the coded faiths empty.

Ceara · Post by **Ceara** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:57 pm

Actually there wouldn't be any faith perks they would be missing out on if they had the coded deity as their deity and the uncoded as their symbol. They would have all supplicate commands and in most cases be able to enter the temples and buy weapons armour etc....

As for not wanting to hear about older players first off they aren't giving up perks for understated items. I"m talking about some people going for years without it because of rp they are doing it for the sake of rp not stats or items and then suddenly it's all thrown away like it didn't matter.

My point is it has been good enough for 6+ years why should it change now? That has always been the trade off, if you want to play a follower of an uncoded deity then the trade off for the work that goes into making it happen, you don't get the same advantages of coded deities.
Frankly I have a lot of respect for those that play followers of uncoded deities because of that sacrifice.

Edited to add:
I am also fairly insulted by your comment, I have never once whined about what I lost due to code changes, equipment being removed or stats removed from equipment. I certainly did lose a lot of it including skills which were to be given to a new class which never came into the game. I could go on if you would like to hear real whining about what older players have lost.

But that isn't my point here. My point is that currently playing an uncoded deity shows dedication and high standards of rp. That will be taken away if it's changed.

Amalia · Post by **Amalia** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:34 pm

My apologies, from the progression of the discussion I was under the impression that the change would be in order to provide uncoded priests with deity-specific and domain spells, while disabling all or most of their supplicate abilities (sinch such would operate on the basis of the coded deity, not their uncoded one), ability to enter the coded deity's temples, etc.

If it's been good enough for 6+ years, and we can make it better, why NOT change it now? I have respect for those players too-- but an unclassed priest is a severely crippled character, and even if a priest can be given the cleric guild without a coded deity (I don't know if they can or not) I would imagine it would still be quite difficult to pull off mechanically. This is specifically in reference to *priests* of uncoded deities-- I've never met one, and if someone does play one, massive kudos to them-- but I can think of no reason why making the situation easier for them, and for those who would like to pick up the same line of RP, is in any way disgracing them or belittling what they're doing. It is my opinion that the actual roleplay itself-- and only that-- can truly show a player's colors. The fact that someone is playing a mechanically difficult character is, I think, far less impressive than someone playing that character OR any other character very well.

In response to the edit:
I did not mean that observation as an insult. I am merely pointing out that, whatever older players have lost due to changes, newer players never had in the first place-- and old players still have perks on their characters that have *not* been taken away. It has been pointed out to me on several occasions-- regardless of whether by you or not-- that this is balanced by other perks that only new players can get (though I have never learned what those perks are, as I don't have the older characters myself with which to compare). Because that comparison is so often made, I feel it's not right for a new perk to be poo-poohed on the basis that old players didn't get it-- especiall when, like this, it seems that all players, whether old or new, who have a character that fits the bill, will benefit.

Solaghar · Post by **Solaghar** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:36 pm

One thing I'll point out is that most, though not all by any means, of the uncoded Gods people tend to follow fall into the Demigod category. In real D&D, demigods can not grant spells above (I believe) 6th level, though this might be as of 2nd edition. Demigods are less powerful than other deities and hence, their followers reflect this with a lack of more powerful spells.

Now as for why Greater Gods like Silvanus are not included in this game while others like Chauntea are, that I can't say. Maybe another thread is necessary!

Oghma · Post by **Oghma** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:47 pm

The current gods that exist in game are as a result of the decisions of the original owners and continued owners of the mud. They chose the best imms for the current game situation in my experience. Because there are over 32 imms currently available to be followed I will honestly say that it is very doubtful that any new fully coded imms like Silvanus will be added to the mud in the foreseeable future. I cannot confirm such though as one does not know what could await tomorrow or such. What I do know for sure is that applications to follow uncoded deities like Silvanus will never be turned away if given with proper format, explaining the reasons and history of the pc. I hold in my belief if a player really wants to follow an uncoded deity they will be happy to do so without perks or advantages since rp will concern them more than stats.