Becoming a thief

[Cret]

If this could be moved into the 'Being a thief' thread would save on room. However that thread is locked via old administration..

Im intending thief as a generic term.. rogue should be the apliciable term.

As of late I have noticed an influx of rogues. However short lived.. With out going into great detail I get somethign along the lines of..

"can I speak to you somwhere private'
...
"Are you a thief?'
...
"Oh, your not. Im leaving"

Now the problem is.. I am one. However, Im not going to tell any jon that I am. Nor will several other of the rogues of high standing in the game. Some might - some might not.

What I reccomend for any new thief is to try an actual conversation with your 'supposed' thief. Dont just turn away from a quick "No, im not a thief. What are you talking about. Did everything just taste purple?" bit. Some of us dont trust you... for a good reason. I myself like to RP with the canidate and see where they are at before letting them know Im not what I intend. It is sorta a mood kill when a person creates a character just to find an IC way of showing the world for what you are. For new players, most people will ignore the fact that they are a rogue or what have you when they ask, where is the theives guild. Subility is a key rogue ability at times. Expand your own Rp with some. Not that I use it all the time.

Also, as a rogue you can sneak/hide. I reccomend that you dont play a master thief. We, as rogues, are not master assassins.. undetectable by the world... or human drow with 100+ years of subterfuge under our belts (unless of course you are). Please, please dont hide behind the fact that there isnt a way to see hidden people with out a true sight spell. While a level 50 might not be better in all area's then you. They should have the advantage of being.. well better then you in reguards to experience. That is why they are level 50 and you arnt.

These are just suggestions and should be taken for it. If you want to be the most sneakest rogue, yet constantly fail your sneak checks, then its your choice. If you want to point out other rogues and yourself to the world, that too is your choice. Just be considerate of other peopls rp, expecially if its you with a knife in your back for doing it.

[Dalvyn]

Rogues don't get "discern" anymore to see hidden people?

[Kregor]

Discern is merely a skill treatment of the Detect Hidden spell, therefore, since the spell revisions done in the 3.0 upgrade, thieves can no longer see hidden people, at all.

And now, this gives me, once again, my platform to propose a revision of the Discern skill to work like SPOT in D20, to give you a skill vs. skill check to see hidden people. This would be the balance the game presently needs, and lacks, so that Hide won't be far more powerful than it should be, allowing people with Hide to use it like invisibility.

[Tortus]

Discern hasn't been able to reveal hidden people since the new spell system was brought in. I believe there is a spell with the same effect, and in order to make the spell less effective, the effect was changed to only show hidden doorways and items, or something to that effect.

This is just what I think I remember though, and I might be way off. Just to make it clear:
I am in no way accountable for any of what I have said, except in the event that I am wholly correct, and in that case, I accept full responsibility for my statements.

[Vindur]

And now, this gives me, once again, my platform to propose a revision of the Discern skill to work like SPOT in D20, to give you a skill vs. skill check to see hidden people. This would be the balance the game presently needs, and lacks, so that Hide won't be far more powerful than it should be, allowing people with Hide to use it like invisibility.

I couldn't agree more with you, also spot is influenced by WIS which would make more useful this attribute.

[Cret]

Sorry, There is already another thread for discern. I think its needed to be changed.. but this is a thread for help in Rping a new thief! So.. anyone have any other ideas about this?

[Vindur]

One of the most important aspects of thieves roleplayed as such, is why people become one. A thief who has been adventuring for some time will not have the necessity of pickpocketing in order to survive and then is when is
really necessary a strong concept under the thief.

But if I had to give a general hint to all thieves in general that is subtly, a thief wearing black leather and acting thugish will have half guard of the city with an eye on him/her that is without mentioning that if someone has been caught stealing in the same zone then at each step he would be watched.

[Raona]

I'm obviously coming at this from the other end of things, but I think Cret's point here is extremely valid. A rogue's most important weapon, well beyond the ability to hide in shadows, speak in cant, or pick a lock, is plausible deniability. Any rogue who's plausible deniability is threatened should be ICly expected to take *whatever* measures are required to maintain it...including turning in young whelps who have the audacity to impune their integrity, if not actually stab them in the back!

So what is a young rogue to do? How to learn the trade whilst remaining circumspect? Set up a front - an alter-ego. Develop your own plausible deniability, and make it credible. So that another rogue's jaw drops when you wonder aloud about your interest in no longer driving caravans, but instead serving as their scout. So that when you ask a member of the Watch about other ways into and out of the city, they complain to you openly about Smuggler's Run and ask why the City won't seal it up. You'll then have to work to convince your putative trainers in the shadow arts that you are for real - but it's only under those conditions that they should even consider taking someone in.

I suppose another ICly credible route is the hardened street urchin - learning the trade from childhood, taken in and taken advantage of by an elder captain of the same line. They might well expect their lives to be nasty, brutish, and short, but perhaps they would be lucky. In that case, though, they should still expect to be looked down upon, if not even end up on the dagger hilt of, true "professionals."

That's my take, anyway.

[Ceara]

I've actually heard of this happening. I met a rogue who said in a round about way they wanted to join a thieves guild.

My thief of course wouldn't admit to being one or even hint at it, but she did hint at some underhanded activity in a city and even took the new character there. The new character still doesn't know she's a thief.

It can be rp'd with subtleties.

[Dalvyn]

Sorry to have gotten it side-tracked.

My answer to the original post would be this: It's naturally all fine not to admit that you are a ROGUE directly and ICly. I would not put the blame entirely on the new character though.

Many players come to FK with different backgrounds. Some come in from other roleplay muds that use different sets of rules and different standards; others come from hack-and-slash muds and are simply trying their hand at roleplaying a character; others come from a table-top background and are not sure just how much they should stay in character or not; ... All in all, in such a situation, I would behave ICly and pretend that I'm not a rogue, then if I see them give up easily or if I see them ask around for rogues in a way that is ICly too obvious, I would contact them OOCly and offer to advise.

[Nedylene]

If memory serves me correctly ... there is a certain city you can go to that has the most common thieves guilds which are joined. There are certain programs concerning this city that will hint to a rogue that there may just be thieves guilds there.

All vagueness aside... while denying your status as a thief a good IC way of direction may be .... "Heck No! I'm just your common jack of all trades.. Although I do hear that BLANK is known for their thieves. Maybe you can find one there?"

[Shabanna]

I do understand that a great many rogues want to be be " incognito" ( most of the evil rogues will not admit it to save their lives...even if they are all decked out in gear that screams " I AM A ROGUE!!" LoL ) But,not all of the rogues in the game are totally hush hush. There are some who are a bit more willing to admit ICly that they have skills that are " helpful" to adventurers... and I know a few who have no problem with aiding newb rogues. My non-evil rogue has no problem being "quietly helpful" to the younglings who come to me.(Even more so... if they happen to be interested in a particular faith that caters to both aiding young adventurers and many of the good rogues on the game) *coughs*

There are many means to an end and not all the high standing rogues are evil people who want to hide their roguishness. I say it is a case by case situation. Not all rogues are studded black leather clad thieves... some are even often mistaken for spell casters or fighters. If a newbie rogue is patient enough to put in a bit of time and carefully RP (not just barge in the square and say "HEY are you a thief I wanna be one too?") I have no doubt that they will eventually find the information they seek. Everyone has their own choice of RP... Rogues can be quite a bit more diverse than one might expect. Not all the level 50, well known rogues on the game are evil "ganksters" who want to keep that info to themselves... but if a newb wants to seek out one who is then I would say, really there is nothing wrong with that... those who wish to keep their Roguishness to themselves are perfectly within their rights to do so and those whose RP is less dark and secretive can offer to train or aid if they wish. Just do not assume there is no one out there to shepherd the new onslaught of rogues. Simply because some of the thieves in the game are quiet does not mean there is not hope. There are three faiths in the game that tend to draw the rogues in... and I am certain that one can find aid within the confines of that if nothing else. ( Though I know for certain that there are some who will help new rogues...faith or no faith)

Sorry if I digressed and I did not mean to seem argumentative here. I just wanted to toss out a bit from a different perspective. It seems that many have the impression that all rogues avoid admitting to the skill set. And while it is true that a lot of them are secretive... there are number who are ICLy not afraid to say they can pick a lock in a dungeon , let you out of that locked inn room or steal something back from a bad person who took your things those types in particular can be a good source of information to newbie thieves

and on that note... I am off to sleep happy thieving! XD
"The Banna"

[Cret]

even if they are all decked out in gear that screams " I AM A ROGUE!!" LoL )

How does clothing say, "Im a rogue"? They arnt wearring the shirt that says "Rogues do it from behind"

[Vindur]

Maybe everyone who is dressed all in black leathers or dressed as pirate is not a rogue or a thief, but there are many chances that the guards will have a eye on him anyway, in the other hand guards and followers of good deities in overall terms, will be watching the shady character rather than the well-spoken, charming and well-dressed man but who is secretly a successful thief.

[Travis]

I suppose I'll add my 2 cents here...

I would say, from experiance, that all thieves want to keep their lawlessness on the downlow. The extent to which a thief manages to do this depends on how they are roleplaying thier character of course. In my case... Travis is widely known as a thief. It's impossible for me to deny his shifty ways, so instead I embrace them and attempt to damage control. Eventually, if you're actively stealing from mobles, npcs, etc., infiltrating rival societies, and so on... your cover is likely to be blown. This can be pretty exasperating, but I encourage my fellow thieves not to give up just because they can no longer maintain the facade.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that, once your cover is blown wiiiide open, there are other ways you can still manage to do business undercover. You just have to get creative. Some ideas for this are using the disguise skill, hiring others, RP'ing a false change of heart (only works once or twice), and so on.

[Phata]

I'm going to start of saying that I don't know a lot of how FK is currently being run, at all, nor do I know much about the nature of the guilds in the game any more, but I would understand how a character could go more blatant routes on trying to figure out how to become a certain class, because it's sometimes difficult.

Now, the other classes asking IC is usually fine, and much the time encouraged, the rogue, not so much. Many, many years ago, it seemed like there was a huge secret as to how to become a rogue, which I know nothing of where the guild was moved to nor if there are any more that have been put in, but back then it was hard.

So perhaps instead of completely pushing those characters, who aren't as discreet as you want them to be, away you could do other things that may not be overtly letting them know about your character, but like someone else said, discreetly leading them on the correct path. It'd be completely IC for many rogues to take someone under their wing, without the other knowing whats going on.

And I've read the other posts about thieves abusing code, and I will say I've ran a rogue character many years with only using a coded theft on a PC once, and used it not much more on MOBs, but I did cheat, steal and rob people of various other items, and not always material things.

And yes, discreetness is sometimes key to a rogue character. Another big tool of a rogue though, is friends. Perhaps not friends, but having a solid social network of people that you can fall back on, pay off or what have you is very good to have.

[Lathander]

I'm not a coder, nor do I even play one on TV. Here's an idea though:

1. Thieves Cant language (Feat?)
2. Syntax: <cant> message
3. Message can contain no more then three words.
4. Message can only be seen by others with the Theives Cant language
5. Those without the language have a CHANCE to see some finger movement, but not the message itself. E.g. Sneaky Bob wiggles his fingers at Dastardly Don.

[Tobias]

Going by novels and I think 3.5 the cant is also innuendo using common place words along with hand gestures.

[Travis]

innuendo using common place words along with hand gestures

-Tobias

This is, more or less, exactly what Cant is. There have been posts about the the Cant before. I think limiting Cant messages to olnly three words would essentially destroy one of the key functions of Cant, which is to convey lengthy messages out in the open without others catching on.

I really do think the Thieves Cant is one of the coolest aspects of RP'ing a thief. Oi though, I don't think it should be open to rogues and bards though. Especially not bards. I'm not sure about that, but it seems like one of those things that should be class exclusive.

[Lathander]

I think limiting Cant messages to olnly three words would essentially destroy one of the key functions of Cant, which is to convey lengthy messages out in the open without others catching on.

This is something we could go in circles over. IF Cant was ever coded we imms would have to decide on one concept or another and go with it, making some people happy and others not.

I disagree though. We all read different material and I just finished reading several FR novels where Cant was used and every time it was used it was only a few words. VERY brief, a hidden gesture. Thieves Cant and the Silent Speech of the Drow are two different things. The latter fits the bill of longer discussions in the open.

In the interest of not spamming the boards here, we should probably stop the Cant debate until/unless it becomes a serious coding discussion. With everything else happening, it will probably remain low on the priority list for a while.