What happened to Discern?

Tavik · Post by **Tavik** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 4:07 am

I noticed the other day that discern no longer revealed hidden people. I'm just curious, why is this? That was the half-elves racial advantage, and now its a lot less effective. Also, there needs to be something to counter hide. I believe the only way to see hiding people is by the spell true sight, which I believe makes the hide skill have a major unfair advantage.

While we're on this subject, would it be possible to have discern be a constant effect? I just figure that half-elves have hightened sence and shouldn't have to turn them on. Well those, are just my thoughts. Thanks!

Ketlic
(I stole my bro's account

)

Valdimyr · Post by **Valdimyr** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 4:11 am

I will have to agree with you about discern should be an all time thing and not having to turn it on at a given time. Though, I will have to disagree about hide.

What good would it be if there were many ways to be able to see hidden people? If there were more ways to see hidden people, than it would essentially make the skill hide useless.

Lea · Post by **Lea** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 4:17 am

It was changed when the spells were changed. It was orginially intended to find hidden entrances and stuff like that not actually to find hidden people.

Japcil · Post by **Japcil** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 4:19 am

Lets not forget its bad enough for those using hide to not know if they are succesfully hiding, if all half elves could always see hidden people they'd find themselves at the mercy of a backstab upon entering a room.

Tavik · Post by **Tavik** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 4:26 am

I just think that if someone notices the very small lines in a wall, finding an entrace, that they should notice a human-sized person hiding in the dark. Also, it won't make hiding completely useless. Right now, hiding basically can't be countered. People can hide all they want and never be noticed. A system could be put in place a skill check, like the persons discern skill v the skill of hiding of someone else. Discern is a half-elves only advantage (I could be wrong. If I am, please correct me). If someone chooses to be a half-elf, they choose to be able to see hidden things, but don't get some stat or skill advantages of other races.

Japcil · Post by **Japcil** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 4:29 am

Does the search skill not do this already?

Tavik · Post by **Tavik** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 4:32 am

Umm....I don't think so. I was under the assumption that search was for hidden objects, exits, and traps not people.

Gwain · Post by **Gwain** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 4:33 am

There are other skills and spells that can be utilized to show hidden characters, Discern was changed to more closely match it's DnD equivilent spell. Please refer to other posts on the changes to discern in the forums and helpfiles within the game for more information.

Japcil · Post by **Japcil** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 4:42 am

http://www.forgottenkingdoms.com/board/ ... ht=discern

There is a link to one of a few threads that Gwain mentioned that pertain to this topic. And the end is another link provided by Glim to show that this has been discussed before. I will point out Kregors posts in most of them seem to show what it does in DnD.

There is another discussion, more of a one post about it in game mechanics but I do not believe everyone has access to that thread, perhaps Kregor will share the differences from his other posts and that one.

Robert

Rhytania · Post by **Rhytania** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 1:47 pm

Hiding can be countered, quit easily in fact.

Alaudrien · Post by **Alaudrien** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 3:33 pm

Discern is also a rogues skill. Halfelves and elves both have it I think ^^

Ninde · Post by **Ninde** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 5:55 pm

Alaudrien wrote:Discern is also a rogues skill. Halfelves and elves both have it I think ^^

All newly made elves and halfelves have the discern. Because of the ability of elves/halfelves that can find hidden enterances.

Penryn · Post by **Penryn** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:36 pm

older characters dont get it still hehehe.

But at the same time it shouldnt be for hidden characters.

Paskry · Post by **Paskry** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:49 pm

Perhaps it should be allowed to see hidden characters if the feat awareness is trained, or perhaps a new feat for this purpose?

Paskry

Penryn · Post by **Penryn** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:07 pm

why not just remove the ability for thieves to backstab then all together? I mean there is so many spells and potions and abilities already out there.

Be prepared with some of the other methods and it should be all fine.

Mariela · Post by **Mariela** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:55 pm

I still lothe that you can have a full conversation with someone while one of the people is hidden WITHOUT popping out of hiding.

That bothers me. There is a certain point that if you are having an arguement with someone, you need to make sure you are visable, cause I mean.. it's just stupid that after a certain point they should be able to see you if you are consistantly talking AT some one and not using your amulet. It gives away your location.

But that's just me.

Valdimyr · Post by **Valdimyr** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:49 am

I agree totally with you Mariela. Though, some rogues either don't agree with you or just have bad mannerisms when it comes to their roleplay. But yes, if you are hidden and you speak, it should automatically make you come visible to all players right then and there.

The only rp that I could think of where this wouldn't come into play really is if there was a crowded place such as the Market Square and you were hidden and snuck up behind someone and softly whispered in their ear and before they could turn around, you had blended back in with the large crowd.

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:59 am

The new thieves guild quest contains some very good OOC RP and behaviour echoes about the skills of a thief, take heed.

I agree that I have seen some RP that doesn't take good account of the actuality of thief skills like hide. I've seen a hidden PC make salt and pepper shakers dance on a table, presuming they still can't be seen. I've seen someone tackle, tickle, slap, poke, or otherwise to someone else and expect that they would not be seen in this instance and stay hidden.

Remember, hide is not invisibility nor supernatural concealment. It is mundane concealment behind, under, in, around (pick a preposition) something that hides your presence, or at least your identity if you don't do something that would blatently betray yourself and your location.

Detect hidden (the spell) and discern (the closest thing our game associates to an elf/halfelf/thief's natural percentage chance to see hidden doors, passages, slopes, etc) were not intended by the D20 rules we're shifting to, to be able to see concealed persons. Detect invis (and invis purge) are designed for magical invisibility and concealment. True Sight actually by D20 rules, should not detect mundane concealed persons, either, it was just chosen to allow it since we lack the skill that would actually allow a hidden person to be seen in D20 rules...

That would be spot. But that needs to be referred to another thread in the boards, that got quite a bit of discussion. I would be happy to see discern reworked to work like the spot skill, in that it's always on, and equates to a opposed check against the hide skill level of the hiding PC.

Tavik · Post by **Tavik** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:08 am

Original account owner here.

The subject was brought up about talking to a hidden person. That is not entirely impossible. In an environment with plenty of places to hide, one can conceivably talk to someone while hidden, provided they keep moving. This keeps the voice coming from a different position every time.

As far as Discern goes, if you really think about it the abilities necessary to finding a hidden door or object should making finding a hidden person all that much easier. Consider, if you will, the differences between the two. An entrance is static and thus creates no noise. A person does. Even a person remaining completely immobile still moves slightly (breathing, uncontrolable muscles movements, etc.). Also, an entrance is MUCH easier to blend into surroundings. A human form is extremely easy to identify even when mostly hidden. Another thing to consider are tracks. Everyone leaves some form of track. Obviously the most prevalant are footprints. Generally these are faily hard to avoid making. However, should you manage to avoid creating footprints there are other tracks people can pick up on. Disturbances of surroundings for example. An eye trained well enough to detect minute differences in wall texture will surely note the broken twig, disheveled dirt, or slightly unusual scent in the air.

Lastly, speaking from the point of view of a prospective new player, "What is my incentive for creating a halfelf, when I can create an elf and get the same thing plus more?" Reducing the ability of the halfelve's only racial ability kind of mechanically gyps them. Just a few things to think about. Personally, this change doesn't affect me in the least, I'm just throwing ideas out there.

Moradin · Post by **Moradin** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:29 am

Katlic/Tavik : Do not share forum accounts, even if you are indicating who you are within a post.

Discern as a skill which allowed the detection of hidden people was, in my modest opinion, pretty much the only reason most people chose the half-elven race (saving those classes who received it by dint of their guild or who gained a prayer/spell which allowed the same)

As we move towards 3rd edition some things will change and some of those changes will impact adversely (in some players' opinions) on various skills, spells and racial abilities. Eventually, hopefully, the 3rd edition spot/listen search/hide checks will be implemented and we will be back to a happy medium once more.

For all the years during which discern was a detector of hidden people thieves were at somewhat of a disadvantage. Pretty much three-quarters of the online players could spot them lurking and many folk took great delight in looking at a hidden person so the whole room could see they were there.

Now the shoe is on the other foot and a hidden person has a slight advantage if the other folk present lack the prayers or spells to check for their presence.

Provided that this advantage is not mis-used the players who feel they have lost something with the change to discern should reflect a little. Perhaps think on how thieves and such felt previously when every attempt to hide was foiled as soon as someone with discern walked into the room.

Moradin wrote:Provided that this advantage is not mis-used

This is a good place to mention a few pointers though...

* Being able to hide undetected by most players is not a license to roam alignment or deity opposed temples, if I catch you I will bring down the wrath of said deity upon your head.

* It is also not a license to provoke pkills or stage assassinations. Roleplaying an ambush or such is fine, but the roleplay should stand up to scrutiny. (And before this thread is flooded with indignant responses... no, that is not directed at any particular event, recent or otherwise )

* If you are hidden then we expect you to roleplay being hidden. Poking tickling and conversing are not things that someone stealthily hiding in the shadows would logically do.

(That said, folks should remember that 'someone tickles you' does not mean that the person is poorly roleplaying their hiding since it could equally be someone using a spell. An invisibility spell is not stealthy hiding, it is preventing folk from seeing what may be there in plain sight.)