Kismet costs for all elves/Helpfile update?

Lerytha · Post by **Lerytha** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:15 pm

Hello. I was recently wondering whether there could be some action to alleviate some fundamental errors in elven roleplay. Now... I know not everyone can have read all the elven books (I haven't), but it still grates on me when I see "long-eared human" Mark 100.

I was thinking, there are two things that could be done to alleviate this.

1. Give all elves a kismet cost, including moon elves. Because even they have certain difficulties that new players might not understand.

- However, I understand that might remove some of the fun, with those who can RP elves not being able to start with one.

2. Updated helpfiles for the MUD. As short-term, perhaps a highlighted red section that says:

"Elves learn certain key beliefs whilst still in the womb: it is unfeasible to RP an elf that does not know such a place as Arvandor (though they might know it as "that haven" if they truly had no elven upbringing), or that they do not recognise a community of elves accessible through reverie."

As well, I am willing to elaborate on some of the helpfiles, if it wanted.

Basically, I am thinking that elves who want to play growing up as "humans" should be VERY rare. In fact, I would say that such an RP is difficult - I could see someone who has had experience with elven roleplay carrying it off, by making up their own expressions to explain certain elven terms - like reverie and Arvandor.

Maybe another helpfile addition that says:

"Any player wishing to roleplay an elf having NO IDEA of elven culture must provide an application showing that they will still adhere to certain basic elven principles."

*breaths out*

Sorry, I just thought I would ask.

I AM willing to help out with writing helpfiles as I said before.

Theillik · Post by **Theillik** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 7:50 am

It is true that it is difficult to rp an elf. I had one, and I knew there was soooooo much I didn't know of elves, so I had to play him as naive, being separated from elves.

I think we would encounter a problem in the sheer magnitude of the information, knowledge, history, rituals, mannerisms, culture, etc of the elven race. It is phenomenally overwhelming!

The majority of players will not know that much, even after playing 500 hours or more.

I would suggest that maybe every elf be taught some things IC. Elves have longer life spans, so perhaps they could spend the first few years of their "elf adventuring life" learning from other elves. Maybe not allowed to leave until they have learned essentials, death, afterlife, rituals, culture, etc.

Tavik · Post by **Tavik** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:25 am

I do think you are right that some players dont have any idea what they are doing when they start an elf. However, I also don't think they should be limited right off the bat. There IS a lot to learn about elves, but people can learn with time and one of the best ways to learn anything is through imerssion. A player that wishes to play an elf is not going to learn a whole lot from first playing a human. Yes, they will learn some, but probably not as much or as quickly as if they were playing an elf.

I do like the idea of updated help files (not saying the ones we have are bad, they're great, but there's always room for improvement) Perhaps, upon creation, elves would be made to read through these help files. Also, if you see an elf player IC that doesn't have a lot of OOC knowlege, point it out to them and spend a little tiem teaching them. Offer a few sources to learn from.

Just my two cents.

Amalia · Post by **Amalia** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:26 am

I think a longer tutorial for other races would make a good balance between having humans be the only starting race, and having people playing pointy-eared (or short and bearded, or short and tricksy, or short and constantly hungry) humans. That way players who don't know the Forgotten Realms setting could still start out as something they see as different, exotic, and exciting, and not end up botching the idea of the race due to lack of knowledge. I'd be happy to help write said tutorials as well, as soon as I can regain access to my library of D&D and FR books

I also agree on the point that the vast majority of elves should be possessed of basically elven mindsets (and the same for dwarves, gnomes, halflings, etc.) and it should be special RP to play something grossly abnormal for that race.

Ninde · Post by **Ninde** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:29 am

Personally, I had no idea of elven roleplay before creating an elf. I tried to read as much as possible, and also tried to observe as much as I can. There are a good amount of websites on the internet over elven roleplay, and I believe it should not hurt any new players to read them a bit, also reading books over FR shall help very much.
And currently, there are two exact elven deities in the game (I am counting Mielikki as one, altough she is not accepted as an elf deity in most of the elven communities, for the truth her mother is a human god)
I believe putting new elven deities in the game also would improve newbies elven roleplay, as we all have to learn about a deity OOCly also, before creating a character.
Also, I believe, elven cities/villages as a starting city would also be helpful. After allowed to enter the game with the new character, a quest or two might teach young players to grab the issue of elven roleplay in very general concepts. For that, or course, elven cities/villages should be implemented first

Just a few thoughts over the issue,
Thank you.

Lerytha · Post by **Lerytha** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:39 am

Thank you for your responses.

Ninde, Evermeet is at present in the works. I think the imms are working out for that to be an elven starting place with similar nobility/commoner creation things as drow (I may have just dreamt this, though, but I'm sure that is what was said).

As for tutorials, I would say that is a great idea. Or maybe just as someone said, a force-read of elven helpfiles. My idea for this would be concise, simple helpfiles that cover several fundamental points about elves, which NO elf can NOT know (except drow, which are different).

So... basically... does anyone know how I can email helpfiles to the imms to see if they'd like to use them?

Ellian · Post by **Ellian** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:11 pm

When a player wants to create a priest, they are encouraged to do some research both ic and ooc, to be better prepared to roleplay being a follower of their chosen deity. Most people I know will use books like Faiths & Pantheons or Deities & Demigods first, then search around for additional sources like novels, websites and the like. Researching your deity is important; not only is it expected by the imms and particularly the deity the character will be following, it's helpful to the player's roleplay as well.

I think that most races require this sort of in-depth research in order to be roleplayed well, and Elves are probably one of the most complex and well documented of the FR races. If you jump into an Elf character knowing only that you look and act something like Legolas from that Lord of the Rings movie you saw a year or two ago, then, you might not be prepared to exhibit pristine Elven roleplay.

Drow, Dwarves, Orcs, Halflings, and the Planetouched all have characteristics, knowledge about certain things, and a certain type of personality that a player really aught to know before attempting the difficult roleplay of being a part of a society so different from our own.

Jayson

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:25 pm

To mention also...

There are other threads in this vary board, that discuss the mandates of elven RP, and links to reading material etc.

There are certain things, that even if you want to say you were separated from other elves, you cannot honestly say and RP an elf: You can't *not* know about reverie, you can't *not* know about Aryvandor, you can't *not* know about the Seldarine... those are impossibilities for genetic elves, because even within their womb, these things are imparted to them through the reverie they experience during their growth until birth.

To say that poor elf RP, or poor dwarf RP, etc, should be excused completely simply because of a lack of knowledge about the races, is not being really fair in an RP mud. Even if you go to make a human, you should have a backstory, you should have at least a simple understanding of where the person if from, etc. Even if you are a total newbie to the Forgotten Realms universe, spend time during your early character development learning OOCly about things your character would know.

I'm not encouraging, nor would I want to see us scathing a character or player for their RP-ability if they are trying, and making an effort to learn. But I would also hope that we can encourage players to learn the little subtleties of their race or culture in their early stage... we do have 10 levels in which we are simply leveling to a playable state, and find very little interaction with others, that even a perusal of RP tips on these boards can make big difference in one's RP.

All in all... it can be FUN to RP a race or culture properly, part of the challenge, far beyond that of being strong enough to kill mobX.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:01 pm

IMOP just because you have enough kismet... does not mean you have an understanding of how to RP an elf...

I have NO idea how to RP a dwarf... I have tried... I just can't.... It's just not my style...

Caelnai · Post by **Caelnai** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:07 am

Hmm...I was thinking that maybe a quest where a new elf is sent around to learn about the different types of elves and their history might be nice. ...but then someone was griping about a similar quest that does that for religions. *shrug* I guess you can't please everyone.

Also, I thought I'd also toss in the point that it's sometimes hard not to be judgemental about other people's RP...but everyone should try.

I've seen too often to count someone bust out the osays when they see something they don't like, only to be IC corrected with a perfectly accurate reason. Not everyone has read all the reference materials out there, but there's guaranteed to be at least one person whose read at least one more than you.

Ellian · Post by **Ellian** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:31 am

Zach wrote:IMOP

Just out of curiosity, what does IMOP stand for?

Caelnai wrote:Hmm...I was thinking that maybe a quest where a new elf is sent around to learn about the different types of elves and their history might be nice. ...but then someone was griping about a similar quest that does that for religions. *shrug* I guess you can't please everyone.

The only problem with this is that it wouldn't be terribly ic for an hundred year old Elf to be sent around to learn about things that he or she would have had to go against all odds to have avoided learning during early childhood.

There are some things that Elves are completely incapable of not knowing, such as the things listed above by Lerytha and Kregor. Everything else about Elven society would be almost as hard to avoid learning in those early years.

What I could see, however, is an addition to character creation, or a set of additions (one for each race), which would be optional much like the basic newbie training is now (i.e. "Would you like to learn about the race you have chosen? (y)es or (n)o"). It would be ooc in the same vein as the current character creation system, a series of rooms with notable characters from Forgotten Realms books giving lessons on the player's chosen race.

Jayson

Rennick · Post by **Rennick** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:37 am

I was thinking the same thing about the race training that is similar to the newbie training. It may, perhaps, help new people to a race to have an easy place to see most of the pertinent information about that race in one place at one time. So, I agree.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:45 am

Ellian wrote:Just out of curiosity, what does IMOP stand for?

In My Opinion... i just hit o and P at the same time and didn't realise it

some people but IMHO and the h would be honest... tho i don't know why someone would give a non honest opinion

Lorion · Post by **Lorion** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:55 am

the H in imho actually stands for humble I believe

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:58 am

Lorion wrote:the H in imho actually stands for humble I believe

someone told me honest a while ago... THAT makes more since... seeing as they can have a humble one

thank you loriaon

Jharthyne · Post by **Jharthyne** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:43 am

I like the idea of race training.

Maybe as part of the character creation process, after finalising your character, when going through the tutorial, the character should be sent to a "race training academy" to learn more about his race, before he is dropped into the training area with dummies.

Those who meet a kismet requirement should be allowed to opt out of this option, though they can still go through the training if they are playing a race they know little abt.

The "race training academy" can be as simple as a few signs and mobs repeating all related information found in the help files. Things like how the race looks like (common hair, skin, eye colours, height, weight, etc.) deities commonly worshipped (and maybe something abt those deities), what they usually eat, how they view the other races, etc.

Fayona · Post by **Fayona** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:00 pm

I think that’s a lovely idea Jharthyne. & Remember the coders and Imms are always happy to have quests that *you* help with, there busy busy busy so its always good to help out.

You can always e-mail them your ideas for quests and the like such as well as ask for their opinions.

As for the original topic, I do not agree with putting a kismet limit on the basic elf’s, even moon elfs. True to the fact that,

Because even they have certain difficulties that new players might not understand.

Though, my very first character on this mud was a moon elf, and although I had some of the best help from a certain someone that I much appreciate,

however, a good idea Lerytha, don’t get me wrong, but I do not think kismet limit should be required in basic elven races. The help files are detailed enough to get someone started in my opinion, before they start picking up on more comprehensive things about their race.

Rennick · Post by **Rennick** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:17 pm

As far as where all this is going, I must say that it would seem a shame to put a kismet limit on the basic elven races...but I can see where the thought would be for good. I know that when I started my first char (I luckily started a human), all of my knowledge of elves was based on Tolkien and Dragonlance. I soon found that I knew absolutely nothing about elves in FR. It took a long time to get it all straightened out...

BUT I think that no matter which way we go...it would be really helpful to have help files on things like Arvandor, Reverie, etc. I understand that the imm may not have time to implement these things just now but perhaps if certain knowledgable folks wrote up some nice help files? This might have already been mentioned and I just forgot about it over the past few days, but it just seems proper whether kismet were implemented or not. Just thought I'd give my two cents. Sorry if this was no longer relevant.