The case for fun

[Tavik]

First off, this seems to be a fairly debated topic, but I didn't find any posts related to it in my searching, so please point me to anything related if I missed it.

Now then, before I start, anyone who knows me, will know that I love to debate rather touchy issues, this is not by any means an attempt to flame anyone or anything remotely realted to that. I debate things to bring up issues and learn from them. That being said, none of the following is meant to offend ANYONE in any way. I am simply seeking a friendly discussion.

The question to get all this started is: Are some IC punishments too severe?

Now, this has nothing to do with strikes and OOC punishments. I have no problem with those as they are intended to keep FK a player and age friendly environment and such OOC punishments are necessary to achieve this.

Also, I do understand that to retain the integrity of the game and RP envirionment, IC punishments should be put in place to keep things from getting out of hand. For example, killing a mob in a city will result in your character being jailed for a real life hour. I have no problem with this either. It keeps evil players from coming in and wiping out entire towns or cities which would not be IC by any means. On the other hand it does not completely eliminate the possibility of killing a one or two mobs if it were part of a RP. It simply discurages doing it too often and in turn keeps things very well balanced. This is a good IC punishment.

Now, this is where things will get a little contreversial, so again, I say these things in a freindly manner by which hoping to achieve a constructive discussion. PLEASE do not be offended by the following.

Without going into details or names, I have seen many characters destroyed by IC punishments. Granted, these punishments were deserved, RP'd out and very IC. BUT, the punishment was extremely detremental to the character, and in many cases the player simply gave up on playing the character because they did not find it worth the effort necessary to recover the character.

Forgotten Kingdoms is a game, and games are designed to entertain. I think FK is one of the most entertaining things I have ever experienced. Having said that, these IC punishments in question often go a little too far and destroy that fun. As I said, these punishments are IC and I am not questioning whether they were deserved. What I am questioning, is: Is it really necessary to destroy the fun of the game for players when RP leads to it? I am one who believes that players and IMMs should always keep in mind that this is a game and that perhaps some mercy should be shown in punishing characters. No one finds it fun to have a character they have put hundreds of hours of effort and RP into to be rendered almost completely useless in a matter of minutes.

BUT, I hear you say, these punishments can also be viewed as oportunities to more RP! Very true, and I am not disregarding that fact. However, players tend to work towards a set type of RP. Often these punishments force a change in that RP, which is often not welcomed by the player. Yes, some players do like and accept the change and go with it, but what of those who don't? This destroys the fun for them. Especially when the goal they were trying to achieve is eliminated.

I'm sure that when i speak of this, people are assuming I am pointing a finger at the IMMs (though again I point out that I am not pointing fingers at anyone, or flaming anyone), and to an extent yes, I am referring to some IMM given punishments (Loss of abilities, loss of stats, loss of stats, loss of guild, etc.) HOWEVER, these punishments are not limited to the IMMs. Players do it to eachother just as much (Stealing irriplacable items, RPing badly to ensure a favorable outcome, etc.) Again, while it may be in your characters nature to steal the irriplaceable item, the player who looses it will most likely be devastaded, and again, the fun is gone.

If you haven't already guessed, I have been on the wrong end of these punishments. This post is NOT an attack on those who have in the past imposed such punishments on my characters. This post is NOT an attack at all. I realize this is a sensitive topic, especially to the IMMs and this is why I feel the need to continuously reiterate that no offense is meant by this post. It is a post for constructive purposes ONLY. Hopefully I achieved my goal in presenting this without upsetting anyone, but if I did, I offer my sincerest apologies.

I look forward to seeing what other people think of this topic. Thanks and have FUN!

[Nearraba]

I believe, what the IMM's decide is what the IMM's decide. It is their game & we come to it not the other way around. It is a great privilege and in doing something wrong you should accept any punishment that is laid down. That is just my opinion.

[Velsavius]

Ask any of the longer standing players what it's like to lose a backpack that has hundreds of hours worth of equiptment and quest items in it, Gone.. lost.. Most of those characters are still around I'd say, this wasn't caused because of punishments or IC reasons but simply because of a simple reboot or other such cause.. It all comes down to how much you enjoy playing said character, or if your willing to throw in the towel and just start again.. It's up to you.

[Argentia]

I must admit, that one of my characters has been the target of a rather harsh punishment. It was completely IC, and very much a fun RP.(Although it was ALL a certain Goddess's fault... *I* didn't do anything wrong ) I enjoyed it a whole lot and it really helped to develop my character and move her in a positive direction. However... After the initial "punishment" I was sort of... Forgotten. As in, I was punished but never given a chance to redeem myself and regain what was taken. I know of a few other characters who were also "punished" but sort of forgotten about, or maybe not forgotten and just not dealt with, by the people they were punished by. I think it would be a nice gesture for an imm to keep up with a character they may have punished, and make sure they're having fun with they're newfound condition. I'm not trying to say anything mean at all, because I had fun with my consequences, but if I was just given the chance to redeem myself, it would make my RP experience complete and perfect. =)

So yeah. Those are my humble thoughts.

[Kregor]

Speaking from parenting experience, when you sit a kid in time out, you don't just leave them there, and you don't just leave them to get up and do their thing when they get tired of sitting there, you follow up with them, you give them a set time of time out, then you assess to make sure they know why they were put there, as long as it's clear they understand the reason for their punishment, and they have learned their lesson, you let them out.

I, too, have a character with a 3 stat as a result of an IC mistake... it's been there for over a RL year, and I basically just gave up on ever having an IC RP to get it back after about six months. In fact, I've only now really had the inclination to play him again. Basically... he got put in time out and just left sitting in the corner. It changed his RP, and led to good RP as a result, but even after repentance, and attempts to earn atonement, there has been no redemption.

For cases of punishment ICly in the game, especially those that involve stripping an ability or a stat, I agree that there should be a completion of the RP, in other words, follow up, offer the chance for redemption ICly, and once it's achieved, restore what was taken. We're not talking for OOC issues like abusing a skill or code abuse, but for IC mistakes that incur IC penalty... stripping down a stat, and just leaving it there forever more, isn't conucive for good RP... it's just cruel and cold.

[Sune]

I must admit, that one of my characters has been the target of a rather harsh punishment. It was completely IC, and very much a fun RP.(Although it was ALL a certain Goddess's fault... *I* didn't do anything wrong )

*coughs rather loudly*

[Elwin]

I have to agree with Kregor and Argentia. I have never been stripped of a stat or really any other major IC punishment other than being killed, but if I were, I would go with it, until it seemed like it didn't matter what I did. Once it looks like there's no way for you to get the punishment lifted, it stops being fun to RP the punishment and just becomes boring and you feel left out. Just my thoughts.

[Zach]

One of my Priestess was stripped of a stat... her wisdom... at first it was not a bid deal... I delt with it IC and all... but then the new spell system came in... and i could not do anything. I was a bad and very weak fighter...

I went to the e mails and ... i think i kind of over did it... sent them quite a few e mails... but then... i got my break... they turned there head to me and have me half a smile... and I got half my stats back... and i am going to contenue to RP with her well and in hopes ... get the rest of my stats back...


Don't just quit because something bad happened IC that was deserved... if worse comes to worse and you feel you were...(i'm going to use the time out because i do the same with my kids) put on time out but just left there not knowing what to do next... then send in an e mail to Complants@forgottenkingdoms.com telling them you would like RP to get back your stats or somethhing IC that fits your punishment or the likes..

please don't just stop playing a charactor... it is no fun for the rest of us as well

[Lathander]

I want to take a moment to offer a different perspective on this issue. I am also a parent and someone who has considerable experience working with children and with the discipline of children. Heh, I am NOT trying to say that you are all children, just that I agree with the time-out philosophy stated above. There is something that I think falls a little short in the analogy that I will address later in my post. I'm going to ask that you all look at it from a slightly different perspective. Before I begin, the use of the word "you" is not intended to denote a specific player. If you feel that your are being singled out in this post it is a result of your own guilt and not my doing!

IC consequences are not always enacted by imms for purely IC reasons. We often enough discover activity that is so ICly inappropriate as to really border on OOC. There are things that we see characters do that they would VERY likely not do. Rather than slam them OOC we resort to things like dropping skill levels or stat levels. Sometimes we give IC justification to these actions, sometimes we don't. We rarely do them unilaterally - there are usually at least two imms who discuss if it is appropriate to make the alteration before it happens.

A few examples of reasons for those drops would include the following:

• Abuse of the steal skill = we drop your steal skill
  Abuse of pkill = we make it so the murder command doesn't work for you
  Insulting an imm ICly = the imm takes exception and lowers your Wisdom
  Acting far outside the norm for your race = we might change your race
  Using magic very much against your nature = take away ability to cast
  Abusing certain spells = take away ability to cast or remove that spell
  The list can go on.

As for addressing the issue of rp to get the stat/skill back, this is where I want to make a few points that have not been made, and where I want to address the "time out" analogy. When a child is sent to time out, he/she is expected to go to a designated area that is away from distractions. The child doesn't get to choose to spend time out playing at a friend's house. Yet, this is what we frequently witness. A PC is stripped of some stat/skill and then goes off to play an alt for a considerable time before returning to the original PC and asking (complaining, demanding, threatening, whatever) for the stat to be restored. This defeats the purpose. We aren't getting to watch over any rp of the lowered stat. In fact on those few occassions when we do get to observe the rp, we see PCs rp a high INT or WIS when it isn't there.

To be perfectly honest, another of the reasons (in addition to us not seeing that particular PC being played) it seems to take a long time for PCs in these situations to receive special rps to get back what they have lost is that we are reluctant to get to them. In a nutshell, we'd rather design rp for those who don't dance on the edge of the rules and get their stats/skills lowered. We don't relish the idea of taking stats away from PCs as a result of something they shouldn't have been doing, and then turning around and spending time on rp to give it back to them. We'd rather they experience the consequences of their actions and reward others for their better mud behavior.

Are there things you can/should do if your stats are reduced? Yes:

• 1. RP the stat drop and don't just play an alt then expect us to reverse it in time.
  2. Don't act as if you have no clue why your stat was dropped. You'd be surprised as to how often this occurs. If you're REALLY not sure, checking the list I provide earlier in the post is a good place to start.
  3. After extensive rp with the affected PC, send us an application to have it reinstated. Include details of WHY it should be reinstated and maybe even provide IC reasons and rp suggestions.
  4. Do not apply by simply stating "Look, it's been X amount of time, how come my stat is still low? Are you guys going to give it back or what?" Don't dismiss this, it is the most common form of request we see for such things.
  5. Don't ask us to come up with ideas for how you can get your stat back. You are the one who chose the action that got it removed, you need to be the one to work out the rp.
  6. Involve other people. It is not a productive use of imm time for us to run rps for one person. We are much more willing to entertain suggestions that allow us to make the mud more lively for everyone, not just one person (especially if that person flirts with the rules).

Finally, my intent here is not to minimize your feelings on this issue. My intent is that you understand the things that cause the drops in the first place so you can AVOID these particular half-IC/half-OOC consequences, and that you have some ideas for how to go about fixing it if you do find yourself in this situation.

[Tavik]

Thank you Lathander. I was hoping we would get an IMMs point of view on the subject. Shows, people both sides of the story.

Now then, before I go on, I would like to point out that again, I have no problem with OOC punishments. BUT, if you were to continue the child analogy, children usually recieve a warning before they are punished. The parent does not simply throw the child into the corner. Punishments are a method by which we teach someone not to do something or that something is wrong. This would imply that in a lot of cases (not all) that the offender in question, doesn't really know that what they are doing is wrong.

As far as how this relates to IC, players may not be aware that they are boardering on the rules, or believe that they have some IC justification for their actions. What I'm getting at here, is that things do happen and not for reasons of breaking rules. Now I know this isn't always the case, but I do think some tolerance should be shown. A warning would be nice. I'm not saying the IMMs don't give warnings and leave it at that, I've seen them do so. But they don't ALWAYS give warnings where they should be applied.

Again, what I have said through this and other posts, this is supposed to be a fun environment, right? I know there needs to be limits and that with limits come punishment, but I don't think such harsh punishment should be imposed on those that aren't actively trying to break the rules. People do make mistakes, yes. Where the analogy fails in this post is that we are NOT little kids (at least I don't think the vast majority of us are). We can simply be told "Don't do that" and we won't. Why destroy the fun of players when it really isn't necessary? In most instances, words will work just as well. If the player repeats the offense then obviously they didn't, and punishments should be applied. But again, why incur a punishment and destroy someone's fun, when you don't have to?

Thanks again, Lathander, for the insight, as well as to everyone else for keeping this from getting offensive and abusive.

[Lathander]

Yes, I think we can all agree that this thread could easily have become abusive or flaming but has not. And that is a good thing all the way around.

No, most who play here aren't children though several are very young. We do give warnings in the sense of "Don't touch that." We have an extensive help file system as well as the announcement and policy sections of the boards. We expect players to be aware of those policies. Beyond that, we use warnings with discretion. For instance, if we recognize that the offender is a newer player we almost always warn first. In other instances we don't give warnings. It really comes down to what we see and the need to make a judgement. If it is a longer-term player who really should not better not to touch the stove, so to speak, we believe that he/she is only going to learn if they get burned.

We can also agree that the game should be fun. And by and large it very much is that way. Getting in trouble for doing something wrong is never fun - not for the offender, not for the imm. Please also remember that every imm has mortal PCs. We enjoy playing them a lot. The time we take to deal with those who cause problems takes away from our fun factor as well. In an ideal situation, all imms would do nothing but improve code, design new areas and run rp. Sadly, it isn't ideal. But, it IS getting better, as evidenced by the increase in time the imms have had to work on code, areas and rp.

I am thankful for this discussion because it has made me put down in writing some of the more common reasons for stat drops and, just as importantly, some ideas for having them restored that everyone can access and use as reference.

[Tavik]

A few things that I came to mind while reading your post.

First, I guess we don't really think of the IMMs as having to give up time to deal with such things, so I think it would be appropriate to recognize that fact.

Second, you mentioned that people would have to go through "extensive RP" before applying to get something back. Could you elaborate on a GENERAL estimate as to how long extensive RP is? I've heard it refered to as a couple hours (extensivly RPing death and raising) up to a couple years (squires require extensive RP before becoming paladins). Just looking for a rough definition of extensive RP in this instance.

Third, while I suppose it wouldn't be right for the IMMs to come up with a quest to get something back, doesn't having the player in question come up with it, kind of defeat the purpose? I mean to say, wouldn't they likely make it easy for themselves, or know the whole quest and what must be done so that there is no challenge?

Fourth, I am interested in your (everyone's, not just Lathander's, though his would be appreciated as well) views on the possibility that for some actions there might be IC reasons that IMMs do not observe. This is no fault of the IMMs as it is understandable for an IMM to have been busy and then come in half way through the RP and see things differently.

Look forward to hearing from everyone. Thanks again.

[Zach]

Tavik said we should be warned before punishments (kind of... not exact but it is the general idea that I want to touch up on)

Lathander touched up on the point of the help files... I (first off) would like to note that is why I first liked this mud... was the help files.... the MASSAVE help file... not that that is out of the way

There is a help file for almost anything in game... weather bad or good... if you THINK it is bad... then try to HELP it... most things are covered in the newbie training area (as a warning) and then the help file (as another warning) some help files are ECHOED to everyone by an IMM for some reason or another... as a warning... the posts in this forum could be used as a warning... we are given a warning most everywhere we turn...
We are warned

EDIT: Because I can…. And I am VERY bad at spelling!

I feel like I was not grateful enough... so I am at it again...
I have been warned in the past... and it was because I was not paying attention to what I was doing and where my RP was heading... and someone have me an OOC warning of "Hey... watch out you might not want to go there" and it brought me back into reality and pay attention to what I was doing... I AM grateful of the warnings we DO get… but I just want to point out that we DO have quite a bit of warnings for those out there that say “I wasn’t warned!!!”