Apprenticeship

[Tavik]

Thiellik: I don't think anyone here is saying that terrible penalties be placed on those that decide not to train alone, we're jsut pointing out that it should be made harder to some extent as this is the way it would be anyway. As Lathander, and I, and some others (forgive me if I don't mention you, but I do know you're there) have stated, it wouldn't be impossible to create a "rogue" wizard, just more difficult as would be expected. Also, those who do create said wizard and succeed basically get the bragging rights of doing so. In general, the harder it is to attain something, the more others look up to you for attaining it.

Mele: Again, I don't think anyone is saying that those who apprentice are going to be GREATLY blessed with abundance of item/rewards. Obviously they will get some advantages over ones who don't, but that would more come in the form of numorous RPs, less of a strain for money, and more active learning. As for the time changes, usually , I find those types of things to work themselves out. Most of the time, when two characters are on at the same time, it's because they are both on at a time that is convenient for them. I know this doesn't always hold as truth (especially on weekends), but for the msot part, it should work fairly well. Perhaps, master and trainer make sure OOCly that they will be able to meet fairly regularly. As for non-level 50, high hour character, I don't really see why you would be forced to apprentice. The character should already know quite a bit about casting, so there shouldn't be any need for them to apprentice. If I understand where all this is going correctly, the apprenticing would start with new unguilded wizards. They would have to apprentice before becoming guilded (except of course in the case of a rogue wizard), and they would continue to apprentice for a while after becoming guilded.

To add in my own question here (more to possibly get things rolling), at this point, is anyone opposed to the institution of a council of wizards made of high level characters from the various guilds with the intention of providing masters to all (or almost all as it were) young wizards? (Run on sentence, I know ) I don't mean for this question to discurage further discussion, just want to see where everyone stands on the basics.

Again, these are just my observations, if you will. If I seem critical, I mean it only as constructive criticism, and by no means to offend. I look forward to more ideas and discussion.

[Cret]

After all this discussion about my initial post, sorry if im not really thurough i just like to lob out the idea.
here goes:

Any new mage would start out UN-APPRENTICED. They havent chosen a guild, even if oocly they have.

Joining the School of Wonder is the initation to APPRENTICE. At that time give them the choice on weather they will seek out a master or not apon completion of the school.

This choice would limit what spells they could obtain when they enter a guild. THerefor they only way they could obtain thoese spells is through quests or Rp.

At some point while in the guild alow the player to reach a JOUNREYMAN level. Now un-mastered mages could never reach this status. Though they can reach the next level.

Most people would fit into the Journeyman level. This means they have/had a master and are through with most if not all of the teachings of that guild. This is probably where Mele's characters would fit in. Journeymen are able to help with teachings, learns more spells, etc.. Stuff a apprentice cannot.

MASTER. Any mage can reach this level. Hopefully through Rp.. but sometimes self sacrifice and constant studying pay off. This, not the higest rank, would alow people to take apprentices help them with rp and other things in the mud. These could learn any spell they so choose with exception of a few that would require much RP or Quests to get.

Arch-Wizard would be the highest ranking one could achieve. These would form the council to choose what mages are ready to move from rank to rank with imput from the master.

While the Arch-Wizards would hopefully be PC run. Immortals who see constant rp, or believe a player is ready to move in rank. This would alow all of us on wierd hours (aussies, insomniacs, etc) to move arround.

This means also that the WEAVE could choose who to promote.. or demote with recklass, unabashed use.

[Tavik]

I think that is an excellent idea. Not too complicated, works for everyone, has a good level of organisation. Plus the fact that anyone can potentially become a master is excellent incentive to RP a lot. So far, I think Cret has got the best idea (and I won't neglect to mention that he should be credited with the idea in the first place). Now I'm all excited about this...Can't wait to see something (if accepted of course) put in place.

[Lerytha]

How about utiloising Cret's idea, in conjunction with something similar to Faith Level? So, maybe a "Guild Level"?

We could use those rankings Cret has suggested. *shrugs*

[Tavik]

I think that'd be pretty cool, but keep in mind that it would require some coding and that the decision there would be up to the coders as to whether or not they want to do it. I'm not opposed to the idea of a "guild level" by any means. I do like the idea, but I'm not going to be upset if the coders don't really think it's worth the effort. Maybe we can get a coder's opinion here on the matter?

[Argentia]

Call me old fashioned, but I don't think any new code is needed here. As is, you can have an apprentice or master if you wish, and it certainly makes your training go a lot easier. With a master, an apprentice can be shown where to learn spells, given guidance on how to go about certain tasks, lent money for learning spells, and even directly taught some spells if skill level allows. A masterless wizard receives none of these.

The system seems fine the way it is. It also seems silly to me to force apprenticeship on anyone because that may not be their RP. And also, that is certainly not the way wizardry works in FR. While joining a wizardly organization or apprenticing under an experienced wizard grants many benefits, it is by far not the only way for a wizard to go.

Yep, that's my opinion. Thanks for listening.

[Taerom]

I think that while Apprentice/Master arragnements allow for great roleplay opportunites, I also think it should be optional. If someone doesn't want to do it, it's their loss, because they'll really be missing out. And anyway, plenty of players opt to look for a master when they make a new wizard. I say that if it isn't broken, it doesn't need to be fixed. I am, however, all for a Wizards' Council, provided it is determined that there are enough strong, active wizards for it to get off the ground.

[Tavik]

I know we have enough strong players, but I also think we do have enough ACTIVE strong wizards to get this going. Granted, most of them are mages, but that may work anyway. A few of the schools (abjurers come to mind) don't seem to have ANY powerful wizards as members. But if we have a lot of mage masters, they should (theoretically) be able to take on an apprentice wishing to join one of these schools, and teach them the basics before allowing them to go out and study on their own to get better and more experienced in their field of study. I think the goal is to have a few master wizards from each guild, but I would thinkthat if we don't have enough active, high level wizards to begin with, we could use mages as an acceptable substitute for any guild, though they wouldn't be able to teach as much (not trying to offend the mages, you'd still take on other mage apprentices and teach them to a further extent). Anyway, the other point I had is that I want to reiterate that should something such as this be put in place, that not only high level characters be put in place to fill the posistions, but characters that are active as well and look like they will remain active. I don't really see the point of putting someone in that is more than qualified, but never around. Anyway, great ideas! Keep em coming!

[Argentia]

The reason why there are no strong abjurers is because there are no abjurers. A guild has yet to be put into the game.

Apprentice/master roleplaying has been going on since before I even started playing the game... It's not exactly something new. =P There are enough high-leveled and experienced players out there that if someone wanted to find a master, they could rather easily do so. And the benefits of having a master are already in the game, regardless of any code... I think what everyone wants, is already there in front of us.

[Tavik]

I know there aren't any abjurers yet. I was just using it as an example for the whole "mage can teach any school thing". As for the apprentice/master thing, yes it has been in the game forever, no it doesn't require a whole lot of code. I think it would just promote RP more and help weed out twinkers. I really don't see any big pitfalls to this idea anywhere. Perhaps I'm missing a big problem or something and if so, please feel free to correct me and point that problem out.

[Isolrem]

Q: Would this addition be attractive if provided free
A : Definitely

edit: I politely disagree with the saying that we already have everything we want (which is, by the way, impossible ). We want to have a measure of when a mage is experienced enough to be a master, we want a player character to (as the archwizard) regulate these activities. We want apprentices to have an easier time finding their masters.

so I say we do it, seeing as the only against is the coder's time it consumes. But personally I don't see how any improvements would be "not worth it" in the long run (this goes for a number of issues.) The Guild Level system should not prove to be much coding (from what I can discern) when such a good exemplar as the faith level system is in place.

[Tavik]

From my VERY limited experience in coding, I would say that really all you would need to do for the guild levels would be to take the code for the faith levels, pull out a few steps, and reword the titles. Coders, correct me if I'm wrong in assuming it is that easy. Also, I really don't think that even the guild levels would be required for this to work. I really like the idea and am all for it, but if it is not a priority, this system could still be put in place without any coding at all (and then perhaps the guild levels could be coded at the convenience of those who code). I agree with Isolrem that this would provide more than what we have and would be a valuable addition to the game.

[Dugald]

Why wizards? I don't see wizards as being the student/master as much as you guys do.

I mean, we already have an IC school - where when you finish you're an accredited wizard to go off and do as you wish.

But in Forgotten Realms, as far as I can tell, Wizardry is implied to be a generally solitary pursuit. And while I understand the desire to have a more structured master/pupil society in the wizard class, I don't think it's strongly supported in canon after one is already a wizard.

In FR, the reason it's difficult to be an accomplished wizard is because you have to have an innate desire for knowledge which will help you overcome the trials of learning all this crap, effectively, on your own. It's filled of self study, mountains of texts, guess and tests, trials and errors - until you are able to produce the results that you desire.

With powerful mind control magic, with active evil (and good, if you're evil) deities - I don't particularly find that archmages would have an interest in training wizards to be more powerful, instead of just letting them fail on their own.

Since we do play the protagonists or general foci of the story, all of our mages will succeed on our own and thrive in wizardry society. I don't think that should be because, for some reason, an archmage chose to groom us with all the tricks he bled to learn - I think it should be because we're all playing exceptional humanoids and we generally overcome most of our tests (good or evil).

On that same token, I don't think that means that everyone should automatically shun any up and coming wizards who are looking to mooch off of an accomplished wizards knowledge. I do believe that it should be encouraged to initiate that RP, but I think it should be seen IC for what it really is an incredible rarity that the pupil will likely never be able to repay.

If we put some kind of ceiling on characters where it becomes a necessity to have a teacher to advance, I feel that will eventually cheapen the entire experience for the player - and others will see that through the character's enthusiasm or attentiveness.

In conclusion, wizards are even more solitary than rogues when it comes to personal improvement. If you're looking for a class system that has sweeping canon precedence on a tutoring system, look towards the priests and paladins. If you're looking for a ceiling mechanism to deter twinks and powergamers from the class, put it on either hours played or age of the character, imo.

The Red Wizards of Thay, are a rarity, not the rule. And the only reason they mentor for such an extended period of time is so those under them have to serve them for life...because, that's reasonably the price of being tutored by accomplished wizards.
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I do very much like the idea of a council of wizards, but I think their purpose should be different than the Ranger Council. I think it'd make more sense that the Wizards focus on imbalances in the weave and general threats to the magical world - that would threaten all spellcasters (good/neutral/evil).

I'd also think it'd make more sense if the seats were regional, as opposed to by school. But that would be on the assumption that the council is more of a magical united nations than a group of philanthropist mentors. I think the rift between representatives of Shadowdale and Zhentil's keep, would be a fun one to watch play out. And, as far as I'm concerned, Wizardry is about the search of knowledge - even a good wizard would admire the lengths some evil wizards go to obtain their common pursuit. Which, in no way implies they'd get along.

[Amalia]

Dugald's got a point-- much as I like the DragonLance system for wizards, it's not how things are in canon FR. If the administration wants to change that, all right, but I think it's a good point that wizarding ability is better appreciated if it's an uphill battle to achieve it, either because a character does it alone or because they effectively owe their life and firstborn child to their teacher.

[Lerytha]

Whilst I know that in the Realms, there is no organised hierarchy of apprentice/master like in Dragonlance, the Realms do have many, many examples of apprentice/master. It is not a rarity - it is actually a rarity for wizards to make it on their own.

Elminster had a "master" (I think beginning with "M" - they killed some Calishite wizard... Il(something). But whilst my exact memory is sketchy, I remember that there was a mistress)

In many of the stand-alone FR novels, any wizards are mentioned along with apprentices, etc. There are some wizards who have fond memories of their masters. What about in the Icewind Dale Trilogy (the first book) where the weak wizard who finds that ice shard thing kills his master?

Vangerdahast took in Caladnei (although she was rather powerful already)

So, whilst I respect Dugald's views, I would have to say that any ideas discussed here should not be turned down because there is no basis in FR canon about apprentice/master relationships. If anything, FR canon warns us about the difficulties of wizards making it on their own.

*shrugs*

I would like to see more master/apprentices. But it's not going to kill me if we don't have them.

[Dugald]

Elminstir never really had a "master" per se, spare Mystra. He learned things from many different mages/sages, but he wasn't ever an apprentice in the sense that is being used in this thread. His first, I believe, was Myrajala...then he learned under Arkhon the Old and "The Masked" and Srinshee.

Then he disappeared for hundreds of years where many assume he mastered his craft by himself.

There are just different classes that have more sweeping precedence of actually having tutors. All wizards really need, are books - classes with higher focus on Wisdom would be the classes who more commonly utilize mentors throughout their entire lives (monks, druids, rangers, paladins, clerics).

But, I agree with you, if the administrators believe it'd improve the game, and it'd be easy enough to change, then I'm all for it. I was just throwing in my two cents. I enjoy this game because of the players and the environment provided by the other pc's/immortals/and the administrators - not necessarily it's parallel to canon FR

[Duranamir]

Backing up what Cret has suggested above.

In general i think that the apprentice\master setup works very well on an indivudial basis. What it does not do is cater for the broader education of mages. This is currently accomplished by the various schools of magic. However at present this training stops as soon as someone actually joins a school or guild. For example if one joins Arkans Invactorium then all that happens is that you become an invoker. The school itself is then just a place to learn magics.

What i would like to suggest is a broader role for the schools so that instead of pushing for more master apprentice relationships we work towards the schools themselves having a greater role in training there members. This has several good points it should mean that all the senior members of particular school could help in training there juniors so that juniors would have a better chance of getting help when they needed it (It should also help with the IC time differences between players). It would also makes the schools more of an RP organisation and foster links between their members. And as each school generally has an NPC member for example Arkhan for the invokers these could be used by the Imm's to influence the schools in an IC way.

And as Cret has suggested this structure also ties closeley into the structure of religeons and it might be possible for the similar code be used to support it i.e. faith managers become guild council members etc.

Duranamir

[Tavik]

While I do agree that there is very little incorporated into these "schools" and that putting a bit more into them would be an excellent idea, I feel I should also point out that only so much can be done with this. Unless someone can think of a better idea, my guess is that it would just end up being another quest. Thta isn't a bad thing, but like I said, only so much can be done with it. In other words, there are only a finite number of RP possibilites with this.

Also, implementing something like this will require work, and if you want wizards to learn much from it, it will require a lot or work. I'm not shooting this idea down. If someone with the ambition and know-how wants to do this then I am all for it. However, I beleive (correct me if I'm wrong, which I often am) there is already quite a substantial list of things needing to be done.

One of the things I've stressed through this thread is the lack of work involved in implemeting the council and master/apprentice system, save for the initial RP. Another point is that the RP possibilities are limitless. For the most part, quest related RP's are limited to the details of said quest (Not always true but generally speaking, it is.) With player teaching player, the possiblities are infinite.

Just my thoughts.

[Teyn]

Just came across this and was wondering what's happened/happening with it.

Has the idea died, or being worked on...? Maybe someone could update the thread on what's going on?

Thanks

[Bellayana]

I just wanted to bump this and say What happened with this idea?