Relative strength

Rhiel · Post by **Rhiel** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:53 pm

Hey all! Been a while since I last posted. Just wanted to say to all those involved, kudos on the new spell system! I love it. All those new spells to discover! Hours of fun!

However, it did birth a new question in me. Has this, overall, strengthened the wizard class, or weakened it? Of course, I know it brought it one step closer to 3.5 which is an admirable goal.

But it is well-known that the wizard class is weaker than the others in many ways. The wizard, more than any class, IMHO (note: my opinion) is the single most group-oriented class in the game. What I mean by that is, they truly shine in a group, and alone, there can be difficulties, as I have experienced on various of my wizards. Harder to get money, harder to get skills, harder to take mobs when there's no one else on, etc.

RP wise, this has no effect. I am speaking of hard coding. There may be various opinions on this, but I want it to be known that this is in no way a flame to those who spent countless hours working on the new system. It is just something I was curious to know. No flames, please.

Just wanted to get everyone's opinion on that.

Argentia · Post by **Argentia** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:00 pm

Well, you have to weight the pros and cons of it all. The incredibly massive pro is that you have hundreds of new spells, some of which are incredibly powerful like Time Stop or Gate. In some ways, also, you can memorize more spells. I noticed that my wizard could memorize many more higher level spells which took a hefty amount of mem % before. Before, I could maybe memorize 2 in addition to all my other spells I had memorized. Now, I can memorize maybe 4 or 5.

However, there is less room for very low level spells like magic missile, because they take up just as much space as any other spell.(One spell slot) It seems like no longer can you memorize 50-some-odd magic missiles and feel safe clinging to your spellbook. =P

Also, another issue which has been raised is that the effectiveness of persistent spell has gone way way down to its AD&D equivelant, a big jump from what we had before. In this respect the strength of a wizard has been reduced, since they must stop frequently to refresh spells if they wish to keep themselves protected and buffed.

In addition, a wizard can no longer apply every metamagic feat to a single spell like they could in the past. This means no maximized, heightened, twinned, ect. fireballs. At max one or two feats can be applied, three if it's a low level spell. Again, this is a pretty sudden move to the AD&D equivelant, a big move from what wizards were used to.

Well, I'm not commenting either way on whether it's weaker or stronger. Hopefully all those gorgeous new spells will balance out the sudden shift, but I haven't learned any yet so it's too early for me to comment.

Rhiel · Post by **Rhiel** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:27 pm

Hmm....much to mull over there. Thank you for the enlightened reply.

Although I am slightly confused. Feats weren't introduced until the new 3.0 coming out. And it's been a loooong time, but I don't remember anything equivalent to persistent spell in AD&D.

You broached another good subject. Wizards could be effective in a fight (PK situation or just for kicks [vs. other non-wizards]) with 50 magic missiles. Now those mainstay spells are gone. Do you think that the higher leveled spells will be able to make up for what would appear to be a severe hindrance?

Tavik · Post by **Tavik** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:43 am

As far as the new system making wizards stronger or weaker, I think strictly code wise they are about the same. The difference comes in the fact that it looks like strategy plays more of a role in things. So a person with good strategy would probably be able to use the system to a greater effect where as a bad strategist probably wouldn't get as much out of it.

As far as the lack of mainstay spells: I've already noticed that a few of the mid level spells seem to have been given a boost in power. I may just be imagining things, but it seems the disintegrate for one is FAR more powerful than it was before the update. And again, I think the strategy of players will help make up for this.

Rhiel · Post by **Rhiel** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:02 am

Thank you as well for your reply, Tavik.

Yeah, it does appear that that is the case. The mid to upper level spells are boosted in power (I think Kregor mentioned that in a previous post, which I couldn't find, sadly.)

As a person who avidly tabletops, I almost exclusively play wizards, and there-tactical spell selection can make the difference between life and death. I once had a wizard who took Tasha's Hideous laughter (w/ a feat) instead of the ever-present fireball. It turned out that that seemingly "underestimated" spell (at least from the games I've played in) turned out far more useful than a fireball or lightning bolt ever would have been.

However, as you mentioned the uber-disintegrate....that leads me to another train of thought. What if the spells are TOO powerful? I mean, if you can smoke any opponent with a strategically placed disintegrate, where's the competition? We'd have trigger happy psychomages running around all over the place. lol Although the limitation in the duration of defensive spells may act to counterbalance the phenomenon, it's still something to consider, IMHO. I suppose that is what Dalvyn meant when he said he'd be monitoring the spells and the new system before flooding the game with new trainers.

Tavik · Post by **Tavik** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:36 am

I don't see disintegrate to be too powerful. What it's help file says is true. Creatures with ample hp are never disintegrated and just take damage. From my using it, it doesn't seem to do a whole lot of damage either. So really it's either disintegrate it first try, or have another strong offensive spell as a back up. Also, the whether it completely disintegrates or not seems to be dependent on how well (I'm going off of my experience using it, so correct me if I'm wrong) a character knows it and with the new system, only transmuters would be able to semi-reliably disintegrate stuff, where as other casters would have to cast and cross their fingers. So, between those two, I think it is a pretty well balanced spell. As for other death spells, I know there is a save for phantasmal killer, so again a chance it won't kill. Don't know anything about the necromancy death spells, but I would assume they too would be fairly balanced as well.

Isolrem · Post by **Isolrem** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:32 pm

Something else of note is that the changes greatly sharpens the contrast between the various schools, seeing as non-evokers are now not nearly so potent without their mind flooded by magic missiles. This applies especially to enchanters, who are restricted from the evocation school. Wonder if this change will put that guild completely out of (solo) combat?

Lorion · Post by **Lorion** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:18 pm

Without having looked at the new spellists(and without having an enchanter or conjurer anyway) I would not say so. There are plenty of other spells that can be just as harmful I would think, for example a spell like disintegrate or phantasmal killer. You just have to look through your spellist and try out all the new spells to find which one is best used for what opportunity