Waterdeep

Lukian · Post by **Lukian** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 2:14 am

Ok guys...heres another one...

I was just re-reading one of the posts and replies in the "skills" forum, and I realised this: Waterdeep is supposed ot be a newbie, and PC congergational area. If there are 30 players on, 9 times out of ten, 4 or more are in the WD square.
Now, is this good? or is this bad?
For newbies, its wonderful. I, personally, when no one else is on, camp in the square waiting for noobs. I like noobs

, anyhow. I cannot give out alignment ect, but I think that peoples RP is a little....off kilter sometimes...
Evil chars should be allowed into any city unless there is a racial discrepency that sets them apart. otherwise, any human, hafling, halfelf, elf, or gnome, dwarf...(did I forget any?) should be allowed. They all look the same.
But!
Evil chars shouldnt like Wd square...theres so many yucky good characters that their little black hearts might feel....welcome (NO!!!!)
I have seen many times more evil chars than good in WD...
Why??? (he ties it up)
because that is where the RP is. I have made a point of taking my good chars and visinting ZK for some bashing off myself so I could give the evilees some RP, and I expected to be outnumbered, and this was good

but it should go for the same in WD, evils should feel outnumbered, and save insanity, they shouldnt fee supremely confident in WD (save for some special RP's I'd think).
Solutions? (he asks knowingly....)
I have a few, but I'd like to get some input first...tell me....
Do you agree with what I said? if not, what do you disagree with?
If you agree, what solutions/comments can you offer?
Thankies

Kirkus · Post by **Kirkus** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 2:49 am

I think the problem is the fact that there is nothing in Zhentil Keep. So characters migrate to Waterdeep to get supplies they can't find in the Keep. And stay for an undetermined period of time. Now I on the other hand have a bad track record of getting tossed in the dungeon for many many real life months so I stay away except to buy the few supplies I can't live without. I also see Waterdeep as a safehaven. Goddies can't attack us when we are in now that is bad rp I think. I think the only solution is for more people to get involved with building and make the Keep a good place to be so we don't have to make that huge treck across the realms. Now before I get criticized for that remark I am building stuff right now and when I finish my current projects I might be helping out the Keep if I can.

Serge · Post by **Serge** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 3:19 am

I understand that many have the belief that when it comes to Waterdeep and the Keep, it's good versus evil. Just because Waterdeep has the friendly roleplay policy in effect, doesn't mean there are no unsavory characters lurking in the shadows. Every city has thugs and cuthroats.
One thing I think Waterdeep has to realize is that not everyone in the city is good.
Too often, I've walked into the square with my evil character, only to have eyes narrowed and fingers pointed at me, without even allowing my character time to speak. Many seem to place too much emphasis on detect evil and know alignment, without allowing my character to define himself through word and action. I've even experienced characters avoiding RP with my evil characters completely in Waterdeep, just because they saw that little red aura.

Lukian · Post by **Lukian** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 4:04 am

Serge, I think you have hit the nail on the head, my friend...I have a few things to say first though.

First, I would think that evil chars who have madi it known that they are evil would be less tolerated in the city. There are many guards about, (even if they are no mobs, you'll often see griffon patroles, and I think Ive even seen a few guards in room descriptions) So as far as the "thugs" go, true, they will always be there, but I'd think that in much fewer numbers, and also that when they are about, they wouldnt try to be recognized as such.

second. I admit to having little expirince with ZK, but I do know that most of what you need can be found there. what cant can almoast surely be found in berdusk, or another city save for WD. I know many chars who refuse IC to enter the keep (even if they have never been there) on the basisi of reputation alone.

here goes for Serge: Serge, you are absolutely right about the friendly RP rule. which is why I throw to the wind my first suggestion for improvement:
Yes people, there are many more "wonders" in Waterdeep....and theres the magic square of congregation, but what about Silverymoon? there is SO much more room for RP in a place like that, where rules dont govern RP in the slightest (not that im bashing the nice RP rule...its great for noobs) Or berdusk for example? I would LOVE to see some people "move" or make some of their new chars in another city. I for one, must admit that I have no plans for making more chars any time very soon, but if I do, I will surely make them live inSilverymoon to welcome other chars, and only rarely go to WD when needed.
Any other ideas Suggestions?

Mele · Post by **Mele** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 4:42 am

Today I narrowed my eyes at a little red aura standing in the entry way to my temple. (The Selunite temple) I don't think in any way shape or form someone should see a red aura in their good faithed temple and just be like 'Well! I bet they're here to water our flowers! How kind!' Nor do I think someone of a particularly good faith with detect evil on should give an evil a chance to play nice. If you want to slip in easier in Waterdeep, make a good, not evil character. When you enter the Keep as a good, people ask what you're doing there. So yes, maybe the cities are designated to pull more towards one alignment, but do most evils really want to hang around in Market Square of Waterdeep? Giving someone with a red aura a chance to prove themselves nice is like, turning your back and saying HEY STAB ME, the chance of an evil player being nice is very very rare, and I don't think lawful good, or members of particularly good faiths should ignore red auras. After all, that's what the spell is for. Of course, there is also a difference between narrowed eyes, and an outright scene. Just like there is a large difference between going to sit around Market Square, and shopping for supplies. If you choose to rp your evil character in the Market Square, you should be willing to accept the rp of good characters placing their guards up and reacting, in my opinion. Just like if you're willing to bring your good to Zhentil Keeps Square, you should accept the consequences. I remember seeing Glim enter their square once, and I think he roleplayed it out perfectly. If a good aligned char sees an evil on a street, their bound to react, so why not picking through the crowds of Lawful Good Waterdeep's Market, too?

~Danica

Tempus · Post by **Tempus** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:06 am

While there are some good points in this thread, I feel I should point out a little about the nature of some cities. Berdusk is currently the base of the Harper organisation - i doubt those from Zhentil keep would be welcomed there for their shopping spree. Similarly, those of evil persuasion cannot even enter Silverymoon because of the wards of the rulers.

Waterdeep is traditionally a city that is tolerant of any faith/trade/persuasion, and would in fact be the largest 'melting point' in that part of the world. The fact that we have a 'nice' policy there to aid newbies does not preclude there being an eclectic mix of characters within the city, and even those who call it home.

Other places that might be better 'meeting points' for those wishing to instigate conflict might be Westgate, Zaz, Tantras, Daggerford. You should also bear in mind those organisations and faiths which have major presences in these cities/towns, before walking through them symbol blazing and righteous (or unrighteous) fury in your eyes. I am sure there are others much more qualified than I to chip into this discussion, and I would encourage them to do so. Geography and Politics are not in my portfolio

Stayne · Post by **Stayne** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:58 am

Unfortunately it seems many do not understand the nature of evil, or in that matter its opposite. The spells detect (alignment) or even know alignment must be RP with extreme caution. Just because a person is evil does not make them bad.

Some charecters are blatantly evil in all their actions, deeds and thoughts, but some are evil, because of the way they would do things, their callous attitude, or just general indifference.
Take for eg. a Well bred noble. They can be perfectly polite an well mannered in society. They have respect, title, and money. They hold dinners, outings and events and are often seen as natural leaders in a community. Yet even so, this same person can be nasty in private. Fail to pay taxes and they might have somone murdered as a warning. Insult them and they may spread nasty rumours about you. They might lie to gain more money or make themselves appear more adventageous. Red Aura? Most definetly.
Yet when people see that aura they start that stupid narrow eyes stuff, or start insulting the charecter, or even warn people about them. These are also people who have RP'ed with the char before and know that person to be what they are: A well bred noble, of good breeding poise and elegance. Sure, take note of the red aura but try and learn more about why it is red, than just assuming that that person might be the worst in the world. To just assume everything is black and white is to not allow yourself the opportunity to RP. The above example could end up being your best friend, could end up saving your life or helping you out in. Yet many will never know that charecter, or think them out of place in the cosmopolitian society of Waterdeep because they have issues over things that person does in private, that they do not know about and have no proof of.
There are many shades of evil, and not all are vile in nature, some are even quite tolerable. A general who gives no quarter, and thus has great success can be hailed a hero, yet his tactics make him evil.
A person stealing bread to fed their family accidently kills someone, are they evil??
Its a tough question, and letting a red aura be your guide shows a callous attitude that bespeaks evil itself.

At the other end is the people of good nature. I have seen many "good" charecters commit acts that are blatantly evil and no-one ever questions them because of their "Good" reputation (Note: a person with a "Good" reputation ahs the potential to commit the most evil

. Just because you are "good" though does not make you perfect. Yet many people assume cause their alignment is good, they can do whatever they like. Life is never like that. A "good" person can be just as self-serving as an evil person. Some great examples are some of the Presidents of the United States. Many have been men of great deeds, and have done great good for their country, yet have often made themselves quite rich, and indulged their own pleasures while doing it.
Good and evil exists in all things, but as in all things its not black and white. Evil DOES NOT mean bad. Does not mean in a in your face sword toting freak that will hack you too pieces. Good DOES NOT mean that you are a saint in all things.

All that being said, I think the RP between ZK and WD (as the two major zones) should be increased. I have never turned away anyone who has entered the Keep, unless of course they are stupid enough to show a symbol that is diametrically opposite to that which rules the Keep. You must remember that Zhentil Keep is the major trade hub for the Moonsea region, and as such they get all types through there. For them to in fact beat down on every trader who comes their way would hurt their trade interests, and the Lords would not tolerate evils that do such things. Note that ZK is not as tolerant of other relegions as WD is.
I believe that evil should exist in Waterdeep as much as good should exist in Zhentil Keep (And not just for the RP opportunitys - but because its how it would be

. A simple truth to remember is that sprout your mouth off in Waterdeep (wether evil or good) and you are likely to be arrested and punished. Sprout your mouth off in ZK (wether evil or good) and rthe exact same thing is going to happen. Sometimes you must remember that before both good and evil comes lawful, neutral, and chaotic. (And this has not even covered those who are the most blend - neutrals)

Kirkus however is right in saying that resources around that area are not as good as in WD. This can be hard on low levelers (especially mages), but this is something that I know is being worked on. So its just patience there really.

Personally I see some great RP, and some poor RP in both areas, but I have yet to see any need to put any kind of seperation in force, and in fact believe that we should encourage more G/N/E interaction, otherwise Rp gets really boring (WD - Everyone offers to heal or help. ZK - everyone offers to Kill or maim. *yawn* need some conflict (and conflict does not mean PK everyone!!!!!!!)

Either way, have fun, relax and enjoy yourself
I know I will.....

Stayne

Sune · Post by **Sune** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:07 am

Stayne wrote:Take for eg. a Well bred noble. They can be perfectly polite an well mannered in society. They have respect, title, and money. They hold dinners, outings and events and are often seen as natural leaders in a community. Yet even so, this same person can be nasty in private. Fail to pay taxes and they might have somone murdered as a warning. Insult them and they may spread nasty rumours about you. They might lie to gain more money or make themselves appear more adventageous. Red Aura? Most definetly.
Yet when people see that aura they start that stupid narrow eyes stuff, or start insulting the charecter, or even warn people about them. Sure, take note of the red aura but try and learn more about why it is red, than just assuming that that person might be the worst in the world.

Personally, if my lawful good priestess came across a 'noble' character that killed people as warnings, then she would be right to narrow her eyes at him

These are not the days of unity and community being as one, this is a time full of racism, sexism and judgement. If someone has gained a red aura for doing something evil in his spare time, then I feel that others, especially lawful good characters, have every right to their prejudgment of this 'evil' character. That perhaps may also lead to further roleplay, if this evil character wants to show that he is not 100% evil, then there is a whole load of RP just waiting to happen

Sune

Stayne · Post by **Stayne** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:25 am

Sune - agree with what you say, but I just a minor note. Lots of nobles in these times used murder, bulling and threats to keep their peasants in line should they so chose. Many of them were also experts in making it so discrete that most would not know that that person has a "nasty streak" until they see that red aura. To then presume that they are the spawn of satan to my mind is a little to presumptious and possibly very judgemental, especially for those who are supposed to be a little more tolerant due to their ethos, dieties doghma etc. Showing some type of response to the aura is commendable, but when I have had a only slightly evil charecter public abused for having a red aura from a apparently "Good person" then its enough to make me want to do more evil and really earn that aura. Though the actual evil being committed was - to my mind - by the one that was antagonistic, for - if they weren't so biased for no reason, then perhaps they wouldn't have provoked a response.
I only really raised this because everyones response to evil tends to be the same, and I for one think that in general, most of the charecters who start to provoke an evil, probably couldn't have cared less about a red aura anyways!
As always - I do believe that anything that leads to further RP is a good thing.

Anyways - I know we could debate this endlessly, just wanted to stimulate some thoughts

Stayne
"For one to have the capacity for the deepest love, one must also have the equal capacity to hate"

Sune · Post by **Sune** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 2:07 pm

Well of course there has to be some kind of balance when reacting to something such as a red aura, as it doesn't exactly show us variations to portray the evilness of the subject. The High Priest of Cyric, I can guarantee would have a pretty darn bright red aura, as opposed to say, a noble that discreetly takes care of his taxes by shooting his accountant; his might be light pink

So as I said previously, a narrowing of the eyes I think would be fine, a wariness around this character, also fine.. that is until you find out more about them. But acting like everyone with a red aura came straight out of the Zhentil Sewer is a little extreme.

Sune

Serge · Post by **Serge** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 2:45 pm

When a good character goes into Zhentil keep, they are not immediately known for being a good character. Well, not by any aura, anyway. Their dress and action gives them away. There is no spell "Detect Good", though perhaps there should be. To know if a person is good or not, one actually has to cast know alignment on them, which totally gives the caster away. So, before saying that all goods are treated poorly in ZK, let me point out, the evils get treated just as bad, we just can't tell the difference half the time

With the hypothetical Noble, at least he wasn't judged BEFORE he starts killing his peasants, or taking bribes or anything like that. He actually had time to prove he was evil.

Stayne · Post by **Stayne** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 3:08 pm

The bright pink aura comment from Sune has made me curious, from the spell in DnD (wishing I had my guides in Japan with me) are there any difference between the red showing up around just a petty thug and a Real nasty case? Does anyone know if this is so, or can give as an exert from that spell so that we can perhaps RP it a little better.

Thanks for the info in advance.
S

Mele · Post by **Mele** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 5:19 pm

I think all people have a right to react to a red aura as they see their character would. Just five seconds before this post was made *I* narrowed my eyes at a red aura in my temple. Maybe I worry too much, but that red aura could have been a Cyrist or even worse, a Sharite, in Selune's temple, with a concealed symbol. While there is no detect good, players from the Keep often know whether someone is good or not, and I have had, then reaction taken on myself. (Stayne held me there once, purely to scare the ooze out of my little goodie bard butt once! :P) A characters reaction to a red aura is their own choice. Some are ultra paranoid, some could care less.

While we're on the subject of cities and such - Are other races than gnomes not allowed to enter Golden Oaks? I was sitting in the clearing with my miniranger, and got flat out 'proded in the head' and asked why I wasn't there with a gnome.. I didn't know what to say, I didn't know I couldn't be there, so I tried to say I was helping clear out the goblins and kobolds, and I got snapped at, saying it was done every morning, blehed at, and stormed off on.. So. Only gnomes can go in Golden Oaks? Does that mean only halflings should enter Hillsvale, too? And dwarves with Settlestone. I've trounced through all of the cities to shop (I can't help myself. :P) But I have NO clue it was poor rp..

~Danica

Tempus · Post by **Tempus** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 5:36 pm

to Mele...

The incident you refer to in Golden Oaks appears to be due to the RP of some small number of PC's, acting without the prior knowledge or approval of the immortal team. The only people who can make a determination to limit access to areas are the builder admins, and they have made no such limitation on access to Golden Oaks.

Those characters attempting to state there are limitations on access should have applied for a special RP if they wished to do this. Since they did not, this RP will not receive backing from the immortal team.

It is up to you how our character reacts to this RP, as long as you react consistently within the bounds of your own established character.

Mele · Post by **Mele** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 5:38 pm

Oh! Thank you, Tempus.

Andreas · Post by **Andreas** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:51 pm

The problem with evil PCs hanging around in the Market Square of Waterdeep and carrying on with their "evil" RP is that it tends to violate the Nice RP rule for Waterdeep. At the very least, it leads to confrontations with good PCs and forces one or the other (usually the good aligned PC) to roleplay in a manner that is not consistent with the PC's established roleplay.

There are some (very few) evil PCs that can and do RP regularly in Waterdeep without waving a flag "Hi! I'm Eeeeeeeeeevil!" over their head or behaving in such a manner as to incite trouble. Being rude, crude and obnoxious isn't evil, it's just plain childish and annoying. But that seems to be the general pattern of behaviour for evil PCs that want to hang around in the Market.

Look at all the different "flavours" of evil out there! Everything from your petty thief with nothing but mercenary gain at the center of his greedy little heart (think of Fagin from "Oliver Twist") all the way up to your genocidal megalomaniacs bent on ruling the world (Lex Luthor or Dr. Evil)! *CACKLE*

It's all a question of deciding which type of evil you are (which hopefully you've chosen the correct alignment for your PC) and then roleplaying appropriately. Fagin never had much in the way of complicated plots... he was a thief and a crime lord running a pickpocketing ring. He bullied the kids and groveled to those in power. Lex Luthor and Dr. Evil on the other hand both had all sorts of complicated plots in the works. Lex Luthor is (IMO) the more ruthless version while Dr. Evil the more comical. Lex wants power and wealth and doesn't care who he has to maim or kill to get it. But he's slick about it too. He doesn't do murder in the streets, he's got underlings to do his "wet work" while he continues his bid for power.

I think the best played evil PCs are the ones who weave plots within plots within plots. They're very subtle about it and you really have no idea what is going on until it all comes together in the very end. Unfortunately, I don't think I've seen anyone pull this off successfully on FK. Then again, I don't interact with everyone all the time either and really have no clue what's happening in Menzoberranzan or Zhentil Keep.

As for Detect Evil... I've always roleplayed it that there is some sort of taint on the evil person that my paladin can detect. Now obviously paladins and priests will be more sensitive AND more reactionary over such things, but screaming "Evil! Evil! Evil" while jumping up and down pointing fingers isn't a very good idea either. As I always say, Lawful Good doesn't mean Lawful Stupid. Detecting a PC as evil can be a very fine line to walk at times.

I hope those who know my character well also know how he behaves in regard to evil PCs. Granted, there are some that immediately get his back up, but there are also long established RP reasons for that reaction. At 1776 hours of play (just checked), I think I've established Andreas's roleplay rather consistently and if there's a reason for the way he acts, it's probably a good one. *chuckle* Some of my regular RPing buddies can actually predict his gestures and reactions.

I do agree that Zhentil Keep needs further development. Is Westgate available as a starting city for new (evil) characters? It seems fairly well developed with a wide variety of goods. Zazesspur could probably use a little bit of polishing to make it more "habitable" for PCs.

What about all those people out there that are supposed to be thinking of quests for evil PCs? *peer* While I do have several building projects in the works, I'm sure I can find time to work on some small area with an evil oriented quest for the overall improvement of the game.

Rhelian · Post by **Rhelian** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:23 pm

With paladins and others using the "detect evil" spell, the result is a red aura with no difference in intensity.

In Azure Bonds, there's a comparison between the Toril Paladin detect evil ability and the Saurial Paladin shen sight ability. Shen shows a more indepth analysis of a person's aura, showing idealism, greed, hate, evil, good - while detect evil just flags a person as evil, for whatever reason.

Kirkus · Post by **Kirkus** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 2:03 am

I have the old 2ed Paladins book at my house 50 miles away from where I go to college. I remember it talked about the Paladin being able to sence evil of all levels. A lowly pickpocket would be senced by the paladin, as would an evil vampire. They would however not be senced in the same way. The paladin would feel a mere itching sensation on the back of his hand or a slight ache behind the eyes while in the proximity of the petty pickpocket. But in the presence of the vampire it would feel as if his has was on fire or that he was having a migrane headache. Now I am not proposing that paladins get this ability, I am not a paladin but I do think there should be a difference in the rp when dealing with one evil character and another much more evil character. There are different shades of evil: lawful evil, neutral evil and chaotic evil perhaps each could have a different colour or shade of red.

Rhelian · Post by **Rhelian** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 2:24 am

That would essentially be giving paladins a narrow field of know alignment. Evil is evil - lawful or chaotic doesn't make one more evil than another. The paladin would only sense the fact they are evil, not that they enjoy random bouts of killing.

Kirkus · Post by **Kirkus** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 2:56 am

Evil is evil - lawful or chaotic doesn't make one more evil than another.

Very interesting Rhelian. So you are saying we don't need that whole lawful-neutral-chaotic part in our alignment. Because there isn't a difference between Lawful good or chaotic good characters. Good is good

Waterdeep

Waterdeep

Evil Chars

Evil Cities

RE: Good vs. Evil RP & Detect Evil