Women and The Forgotten Realms.

[Tazmin]

This is not ment to be mean or in anyway to put women chars down, and opinons expressed are those of the posters. =p That said...

I am curious how in such a time frame how women are so, I don't know, free? On Toril. During the time period you would never see a woman cleric or heaven forbid a woman soldier.

For the longest time women were held as second class citizens, this is real world dark ages. Are there kingdoms that are not so enlightened? If Tazmin went to say, Kara Tur or Thay or something would she not be considered a full priest because of her sex? Are there places where a woman is considered mannish, like Joan of Arc was, for not staying home and having kids?

Please understand I am not trying to start arguments. I am honestly curious how in such a patriachal socioty women have such freedom? I explain it away as TSR not wanting a lawsuit

Perhaps the cause for this universal enlightenment is that there are a few female rulers? A matriarchy or two? Not that I mind not being a second class citizen, it is just these little things that draw my curiosity.

On a ps on this are priests considered nobles? I have to admit people are most deferential to the good priests, then again maybe it is that Suneite beauty.

[Beshaba]

I would like to point out that the whole second class citizen thing was an attitude that was only prevelant among the nobility and the clergy. On farms, in crafthalls, in all of the areas where the work was actually done, there was too much work to allow the luxury of setting aside half of the populace to non-participation.

It was only among the people that spent their time doing nothing that the value of the contributions of women dropped.

From everything that I have seen, adventurers are a bit outside the rules. Female adventurers may be looked upon a bit askance by some, but who is really going to argue with a woman that can actually use the weapon she wields?

Now the part that I will agree that there is too much 'freedom' in is public behavior. All of the kissing and snuggling in public would definately be frowned upon, particularly for single women. A woman who is overly flirtatious in public would risk being branded a trollop, a woman who betrayed her marriage bed? Well, there you are talking about time for a good public stoning.

I'd also like to point out that the idea of divorce would be next to unheard of. Marriage would literally be 'until death do you part' with one spouse more likely to murder or have murdered the other than to seek a dissolution of the marriage.

[Talos]

I guess that depends on how you define a second class citizen. It was true through every level of society that males inherited the land, made the laws, fought the wars, and got the education. It was not that long ago that women in these United States could not vote. If being a second class citizen means you have a lot of free time, sign me up. If it means you are generally disenfranchised and powerless to steer the social rudder of your nation, I'll pass.
Basically, it all came down to this: male or female, you were a second class citizen if you were poor (i.e. no land or money to speak of). Women as a rule could not own land, and were systematically barred from most professions, so no money either. Women were not second class citizens because they were women. They were second class citizens because they were poor. They were poor because they were generally prohibited from owning property. They were generally prohibited from owning property because they were women.

FR doesn't have centuries of the evolution of the good ol boys club to create its social structure. It sprang from the mind of a few, probably fairly liberal, indviduals in a rather liberal time which had clear influence on its society. As a product which wants to sell to a wide consumer base, it makes efforts to include women as much as possible, to the extent of inserting their very own amazon society. Ask anyone who may be liable for their words, and I'm sure they'll tell you FR is, on the balance, egalitarian. That doesn't mean FK can't make up whatever it wants, but its easier to refer to source books and novels the more you stay in line with them.

[Cret]

As I believe in any society, If a woman can rip off your face and procede to eat several of your limbs, all while picking nits from her hair... She should be respected. Lest.. if she is a Malarite

[Granel]

I believe in all honesty in a world so full of equal achievement such as Toril there is no real room for in equality beyond the everyday persons biases. Whole societies controled and or founded by both genders dominating as equals and not as inferiors. Just something to think about.

[Urival]

Id say that sexism is apparent in a few novels. The avatar trillogy when Kelmvor first met Lady Midnight is what comes to mind for me. Though the books show a few cases of sexism I hope it will be kept from getting "down right rude" on the mud, but I think its fine for charicters to shun women or visa versa as the drow do.
ryanC

[Andreas]

I think there's some definite cases of sexism in the Forgotten Realms. But on the opposite side of the coin, there are Faerunian cultures that are completely open-minded on the matter.

Drow. HELLO! 'nuff said, right? *chuckle*

"Drow society is strongly matriarchal, with females holding all positions of power and responsibility in government, the military, and in the home."

The Drow of the Underdark, p. 13

Elves don't particularly differentiate between the sexes, with males and females holding positions of rank and power based upon personal merit and suitablity for the job. Another thing to note is that elves don't have the same nudity taboos as most cultures. The naked body is a natural thing and without shame.

"There is no discrimination based on gender in elven society. Female elves are considered on an equal basis with male elves - in all things and in all ways."

Complete Book of Elves, p. 48

Calimshan is a male dominated culture. Female adventurers are looked down upon. Calishite men have a very difficult time accepting women in positions of authority.

"The most glaring point of frequent conflict between Calishites and people from most other cultures is that Calishites do not accept women as equals. Calishite men, who hold the reigns of power, adore women, admiring them for their beauty and spirit, but they do not accept them in positions of authority without great difficulty. They allow women in what they see as traditional male roles as rogues or warriors only in extreme situations, such as in the criminal underword or as slave gladiators in the fighting arena. To male Calishites, women are to be ignored, treated as decorations, relegated to the role of cleaning or serving help, or kept as amusing physical or mental diversions for when the constant streeses of serious business have proved too tasking. For women to be as competent as men is simply a totally foreign concept."

Empires of the Shining Sea, p. 56

Waterdeep and Cormyr, both highly developed societies with noble and common class structures, seem to have an "enlightened" view of women. Female adventurers appear to be generally respected, although sometimes viewed as a bit of an oddity. While Cormyr follows the law of primogeniture, female children stand equal with male children in this regard: first born is first born no matter which sex. A woman is the Lord of Arabel, and addressed in the masculine at times! However, most noble women of Cormyr seem to be more concerned with court gossip than dragon slaying. Waterdhavians seem to be much more open-minded and women, both commoners and nobles, have been and are adventurers.

"The Heartlands of Faerun are generally enlightened and liberal regarding gender roles. Women are as free as men to own property, run businesses, and run off to become adventurers. Many of Faerun's most powerful heroes are women. Some socities observe strict codes of gender conduct (some matriarchal, no patriarchal), but this is not the case in most of Faerun."

3rd. Edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, p. 83

Give me some more time, sleep and motivation, and I'll dig out reference quotes for other races. Orcs I know to be another male dominated society. Dwarves seem to be about the same as elves on the issue with females being equally respected and able to hold power. Gnomes and halflings I couldn't say off the top of my head, but I'll see what I can find!

[Nedylene]

http://www.aeolia.net/ixinos/

Yet another women run society within Faerun. I found this link quite entertaining =)