CN and Silverymoon

[Nysan]

BINGO! There's the word I was waiting for: LAZY. Why make an effort to make an evil accessed guild or find in-game ways to reach a place when you can simply be LAZY and cheat... This is why I have no hesitation in backing the flat out deletion of these obvious code abusers.

If you have no desire to build an area, you can at least apply before starting a character to create some 'fall from the light' several month long RP where a goodly wizard changes alignment due to some in-game events. At least this is within game rules and tries to include RP into your 'evil that trained in goodie-town" desires.

'Too lazy' is never a good reason to ignore very basic, very obvious game regulations, especially when there are several alternatives that will lead to the same result with minimal effort on the player's part. Plus, you won't have to worry about your character poofing out of existance some day because you did a no-no.

[Talos]

I'm bumping this topic up because it is unfortunately necessary to reaffirm the sentiments of the staff regarding the issue of the roleplaying of Chaotic Neutral characters. This was brought up due to an incident in-game and is not meant to be the focus of a discussion. The topic HAS been discussed, we are simply restating our stance on the matter...

Chaotic Neutral is an alignment of its own. It does NOT mean evil. This is not an option to be able to 'play evil' without the associated restrictions or the evil aura. Chaotic Neutral characters who keep on playing 'evil without the drawbacks' should concentrate on reverting back to their chosen alignment as soon as possible, or we will have to reset/delete their characters.

This is not to be seen as a hunt or as a punishment, but as a measure to be fair towards those who do play evil fairly and accept the restrictions and the evil aura that goes with it. Allowing some players to play evil while being CN (and thus gaining unfair advantages such as accessing Silverymoon and not showing up as evil, as well as several others) cannot just be 'reverted back', and the deletion is the only available option that is fair.

[Sairaven]

Out of curiosity, what are the steps for changing one's alignment if the course of RP indicates an alignment shift?

[Mele]

To change your alignment, you need to send an email to applications.

Subject it [ALIGNMENT CHANGE] Account: Blah Character: Blah.

The body should read with current alignment, desired alignment and some back up story to go with why.

[Lathander]

Even then, an alignment shift is not always the best course of action from our standpoint. If a PC that is CN goes to train in places that don't tolerate evil (e.g. SM) and then change alignment to evil, they have still benefitted from trainers they would not have access to before the alignment change. It does a great disservice to those evil PCs who did it the legit way.

[Dapher]

oops, made a booboo and did not read the whole thing

[Namic]

I have to agree with Selveem on a point, Some CN characters may do so to bypass the restrictions of certain places but not all. In my understanding CN is doing both good and evil at the whim of the character while maintaining a balance. I understand the points and some of them are rather good but lets look at the other side of this as well Are the Cn that act all good with minimal to nil evil acts looked down upon just as much? *Granted a bit off topic*
I understand the frustration that this must cause on the builders, but as I see with namic since he has been accused of similar things. Yes he does do "evil" things as well as a few evil quests, but he also does good ones as well, thus I see him as a cn character. He hurts and he helps both the good and the bad while never truely doing anything completely one sided.
Also we must keep in mind that it is a game and games do have rules. I dislike the idea of character deleteing or reseting without extensive research into the character and also an sit down and have both sides explain their points. Also if I remeber right somewhere in the newbie area or somewhere I cant remeber where it talks about a "hidden alignment" that the imms use to check and see if this person is following his/her alignment? So if the imms accually used this and changed their alignment accordingly it would be a decent resolve to this problem. (e.g.) Character acts all evil make their alignment turn to the proper evil Ne, Ce, Le.

[Harroghty]

From the version 3.5 Player's Handbook:

Chaotic Neutral, “Free Spirit”: A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but doesn’t strive to protect others’ freedom. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions. A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or evil (and a desire to make those different from himself suffer). A chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random. He is not as likely to jump off a bridge as to cross it. Gimble, a bard who wanders the land living by his wits, is chaotic neutral.

So in this case I would argue that such a character might follow "his own liberty" into such a school but I feel like they would resent Silverymoon's restriction and be very vocal about their dislike. Not enough to do something about it, but they would certainly not be a happy visitor in the city.
Also, I am not certain they would really pursue evil acts. He might do things to his own benefit without minding the consequences but to become truly evil is a real deviation from alignment in this case. I believe they have moved away from the idea of "balance" in a lot of the middling alignments and moved more towards the natural condition of most of our desires in real life: me first.
You could argue this a number of ways but I hope that the above text is illuminating and, ultimately, it's what the admins decide.
Cheers.

[Raona]

I understand the points and some of them are rather good but lets look at the other side of this as well Are the Cn that act all good with minimal to nil evil acts looked down upon just as much?

CN as a cover for evil is particularly common, and of concern here because of its past use as a means "around" the Mythal of Silverymoon. CN as a cover for good used to learn thievery or skills in evil environs would be equally problematic, but doesn't seem to arise frequently.

[Vibius]

Neutrality

The points of being neutral in the good-evil axis (Lawful Neutral, Neutral, Chaotic Neutral) is neutrality in such axis.

A neutral character in the good-axis evil has not the motivation to help others which would be a good aligment, or to harm others that would evil alignment, for the most part he is centered in himself (or in what he believes)

The difficulty of playing a neutral character is actually that, you don't have the motivation to either running around doing all the quests offered by mobs with problems nor doing those quests that brings problems to others.

And sincerely will the character that has helped someone make a deed of great evil after that enter a temple of Lathander and undergo a holy quest to retrieve a captured unicorn from the most evil place of faerun?

If you go around doing great acts of good, it is very very unlikely that you would do evil ones,and the other way around, the TN "balance is all attidude" hardcore alignment might fill this gap but certainly this is possible the hardest alignment to play (or CN) , and you would be eventually not accepted into any of the sides because of the offenses made to each side.

Remember neutral characters aren't good or evil, for the most part they are happy in their own parallel world.

[Namic]

CN as a cover for evil is particularly common, and of concern here because of its past use as a means "around" the Mythal of Silverymoon. CN as a cover for good used to learn thievery or skills in evil environs would be equally problematic, but doesn't seem to arise frequently.

In my opinion it does arise. Since a rogue who wants to be a good guy, but when you go to join the guilds you are required to steal (I hope that isnt to much ic info) so any CN character that wants to be a good guy but joins one of the rogue guilds would have to do an evil act. To further my point a bit more, if a rogue wants to learn basically any of the higher skills of a rogue they generally have to go through an evil npc.

[Vibius]

Good characters learning from evil characters/mobs is AS bad if not worse than evil characters learning from good mobs, and if a good-aligned rogue does such thing I expect to happen to him whatever would happen to an evil character who would have learnt something from a good mob.

AND important enough, if someone makes something that goes against the rules or is totally OOC, that is not justification to other characters to follow example.

The same that is said about evil characters and whatever can be only trained in Silverymoon applies to good characters, don't take the lazy route.

[Selveem]

This thread is getting very off topic on many of the posts, and I hate to be a contributor, but I'd like to address something here:

I hear a lot of talk about 'not being lazy' and 'not taking the easy route' but few are really talking about what I believe Namic is trying to point out:

There are small holes in this game. These little holes can cause big problems for specific types of characters.

When people say that 'a goodie should neeeeever learn from an evil character' they are also saying:
'A goodie should NEEEVER learn some spells available to them.'
'A goodie should NEEEVER train their stats past a certain number.'
'A goodie should NEEEVER try to better themselves by training past a certain point.'
'A goodie should NEEEVER learn some feats.'

Of course, these claims are not just directed at good-aligned characters, but any specific alignment who doesn't have certain things available to them.

There are a few points I'd like to make about these beliefs:

1: Is it fair to those who are not 'in the know' to never be as strong as those who are?
2: Is it fair to those who aren't 'in the know' to not know to apply for certain things?
3: Is it fair for those 'in the know' to apply to have skills raised?
4: Is it fair for those 'in the know' to apply to have stats raised?
5: Is it fair for those 'in the know' to apply to have feats granted?

Think very hard about the answer here, because what some suggest is exactly that.

A person who doesn't know, for instance, that Dexterity can only be trained past 18 by a good-aligned trainer (not necessarily true, an example) would never think to apply to build an area to have a quest with a good-aligned/neutral-aligned mob to assist with this.

A person who doesn't know wouldn't think 'Oh, that spell is only available for evil characters, regardless of it being on my spell list!' and request to have it added to the game.

I have never been a fan of this particular thread because it says one of two things:

1: If you go into Silverymoon and eventually become evil/do evil deeds, you're a cheater and code exploiter.

2: Your RP is irrelevant and the story of your character is null in importance because they became another alignment. You've wasted your time. Re-roll a new character.

Any other uses for this thread have already been discussed: You don't perform evil acts in Silverymoon because the wards would give you away before you could.

The only exception to this rule would be a Zhentarim Spy (I think the prestige is called). They have a completely seperate personality that even they believe. Detect Alignment is worthless against them. They don't even have 'evil intentions' until they go all Manchurian Candidate.

[Sairaven]

I've refrained from joining into this discussion for a while now, but Quey is Chaotic Neutral.

Rather than playing her as favoring one side or another, I see her as looking out for herself first, but at the same time being strongly influenced by her environment and those around her. If she's around good people, she changes to act a little more good. If she's around evil people, she changes to take one darker traits.

Chaotic Neutral, to me, means that you're out for number one, but you're not set in any particular way. It's a little more dangerous, and a little more random, but to me that's what being chaotic is all about, if you ask me.

[Oghma]

I'm just going to say that I only received one plea application for saving a wizard. I believe it was granted. For the most part imms and admins will not react visibly ooc to anyone that acts ooc towards game code:

Yes it is ooc to go against your alignment to earn skills from: Faith enemies, enemies of conscience, enemies of your republic all these without the proper or tangible rp to back it.

I honestly don't care if so and so has an easier time training up certain skills. I personally think it is stupid for a selunite to go and train up their dexterity from a shaarite priest just because they can do it oocly. I think it is grounds for a damning or public exposition of their actions to those that rp faith properly. This is an rp mud, not a stat mud. I have more respect for those that recognize and embrace their rp then those that look for easier ways to gain skills. It varies -but that is how I feel.

'In the know' is something I feel does not exist for someone that is active in the game and bothers to read the helpfiles, the forum guides and use the question channel when they need to find out how they can make the game more interesting and involved for them. We are always happy to take on more volunteers and anxiously await any input.

When people say that 'a goodie should neeeeever learn from an evil character' they are also saying:
'A goodie should NEEEVER learn some spells available to them.'
'A goodie should NEEEVER train their stats past a certain number.'
'A goodie should NEEEVER try to better themselves by training past a certain point.'
'A goodie should NEEEVER learn some feats.'

Allow me to freshen this up a bit and remove the misconceptions:

-A good character should never learn spells that go against their ingame alignment or creed like lathanderites using animate undead or Talosians learning spells from chaunteans and druids of goodly faiths.
-A good character is free to train their stats as long as they are able to, it just depends on them finding proper trainers.
-A good character is free to go and better themselves, though we support and look favourably on a group adventuring system whenever available.
-A good character is free to sample and enjoy all the feats available on their feat list, depending on their preferences and rp.

This thread has been working well in my opinion and been given a chance to grow. I've noticed an about face on those abusing the Silverymoon area by creating CN training in the guilds there (reserved for good magic users) then suddenly becoming good. Maybe it is because we are watching and scrutinizing developments or acting on them to icly punish those that break these rules deliberately. For example, I see no problem with mutating faith followers that flirt with enemies of the faith constantly or those that betray ethose's, They have shown me that they want that to happen or don't mind it. So depending on the severity and/or situation, I may oblige.

Also, I want to thank those that take the time to retain an active presence in the game (I know how busy life can get outside and real life should take precedence, trust me!) Thank you for taking the time to steer people towards helpfiles and emails and to these forums so that they know that no matter how much they think that they cannot actively add to them mud, they can and do make a difference. Thank you from the bottom of my being