Mounts are IC too

[Nysan]

Been seeing alot of mount/pet misuse lately, so I thought it be good to bring it up for discussion.

The two points that have been bugging me lately are:

1. Mounts/pets being neglected. We have stables and stable 'areas' for a reason. Just because no one is logged in that has impound powers does not mean you should leave Billy the mule sitting in one of the main streets of Waterdeep.

2. Mounts/pets being overdressed. There are a few grey area pets that one could debate what they should or should not wear. For the most part, everyone should know what their horse, griffon, dog, ect can wear. Just because it is code-allowed for your mount/pet to wear an item, does not mean it is IC to do so, its a code oversight.

Please be mindful of your traveling companions and their treatment. Some folks do not react well to the mistreatment of animals.

[Raona]

Specific to Waterdeep: The fee for extracting a pet from impound is 10 platinum. I know stabling fees can be steep, especially near the Market Square, but leaving pets in a stable without paying for their upkeep is a great way to have the stablemaster call in the Watch and have the freeloading animal removed. To quote from the laws of the Deep (posted in the Halls of Justice):

In order to deter horse thieves, as well as protect the animals themselves from the games of children and gnomes alike, mounts are not to be left unattended in the city. There are many stables throughout the city, and you should consider it an expense of doing business in the city that you stable your mount there. Mounts in the vicinity of the Market Square are of particular concern. If you have brief obligations with a business, it is fit to sit down your mount outside the shop, provided it be for a brief time. The same doesnae hold around the Market Square, where traffic is too heavy to make this safe practice. Mounts found unattended by the Watch will be impounded after a *brief* search for their owners, in the immediate vicinity. Freeing your mount from the impound lot costs 10 platinum...enough for many regular stablings. Tymora help ye if ye try to beat those odds. The City appreciates that stabling a mount can be a financial burden for some, but can only suggest that none should take on a mount until they've the means to properly care for it - or that they leave it in the wilds.
b) Wild animals of any nature are forbidden from all points in the city. Expect a public riot if ye bring an animal of perceived threat to the populace within the walls. Don't expect to convince the public that yer bear is a tame one, they'll have none of it. Believe me, I've tried! Leave such pets in the wilds outside the city.
c) Pets that will clearly not alarm the populace are welcome in the city. In the Square, only beasts small enough to rest upon their owners are welcome, and that is where they should stay. Larger pets should be stabled - we have worked with the City stablemasters, and most are trained and equipped to properly care for, and will accept, all manner of exotic pets: from mephits to lizards to vultures. Pets are also subject to impound, for their safety and in the name of protecting the public.

[Selveem]

If there are laws of Waterdeep, I suggest they be posted elsewhere that all races, aligns, and faiths can visit.

Don't punish a Maskite that could not possibly even know the laws. They shouldn't be expected to follow them even on their best behavior if they didn't know they exist. Much less, would that hold any water in the courts I'd think.

*edited to include: I, in no way, support leaving your pets out and around. In the past, such pets were dealt with more viciously than just being impounded. I do not, however, advocate rules of an entire city not being circulated in a more widely available fashion.

[Saranya]

Law or no law, anyone possessing a mount should know enough not to leave it in the middle of a busy street (or lot) for three game weeks expecting it to be waiting patiently and well-fed for when they come back. I tend to be more forgiving in the wilds or other areas where there is a plausible explanation. As for that griffon I saw the other day in full plate...the less said the better.

Regarding Waterdeep, I do not think anyone has a valid OOC complaint of unfairness in application of these laws, though you are certainly free to send it into complaints. As an OOC courtesy, I almost always see a warning handed out first, even when the PC certainly knows better and their behavior makes no IC sense.

Selveem, you've already been told (IC & OOC) that we are working on better posting along with other changes. Please be patient. Anything else, including presumptions of how the court system works, should be handled IC-ly.

(Though I would warn anyone from presuming the due process of their RL legal system holds up anywhere in FK. )

[Selveem]

Selveem, you've already been told (IC & OOC) that we are working on better posting along with other changes. Please be patient. Anything else, including presumptions of how the court system works, should be handled IC-ly.

I'll assume good will here, however I will suggest in the future not to assume I have been told something IC or OOC. Generally speaking, you are more likely to be wrong than right.

For the record, I've been told nothing IC whatsoever directly on any of my characters, but as I stated I am not one of those who leaves their mount about.

My post was in the interest of fairness, especially to newer players who WOULDN'T know the laws. It's important that we recognize everyone, not just the elder majority.

[Saranya]

I will suggest in the future not to assume I have been told something IC or OOC. Generally speaking, you are more likely to be wrong than right.

I presume only when I have been the person doing the telling. Please feel free to PM me if you wish to continue this line of discussion.

Very good point with regards to newer characters, but I do believe that we endeavor very hard to be fair (IC & OOC) with the applications of these policies. I would not like newer players reading these forums to think otherwise.

[Lerytha]

As an interesting aside, about the laws of Waterdeep... it is one of Lerytha's election policies to have the laws posted where everyone can see them, and probably in several places. But that would be a shameless plug to make, no? *mad power-crazed cackle*

But the point about the laws is actually an IC one. The laws the Lawmakers came up with were as a result of a long strenuous IC set of meetings (and lots of OOC work, too, thanks Raona who did lots of the legwork in organising us!).

The point about mounts is also largely IC. I think its good to have OOC announcements so people know about it, but again, its one of those fine dividing lines between OOC sensible actions and IC consequences.

[Oghma]

Discussion aside, if you bring a pet into a city with stables that allow you to stable for a fee, you would be expected to stable your pet. This goes hand in hand for Waterdeep, because it has several stables to choose from at competitive rates and prices. If you do not stable your pets you may be asked to stable them icly, if you can't afford it, then it is easy enough to leave your pets outside of a city or in a nature driven area within. This varies with situation but it does hold the same significance. I applaud those people with the power to impound, that take the time to seek out negligent owners to give them a chance to stable before impounding.

I'll also add, you should never bring feral mounts or pets into cities, if you do, you may lose them.

[Nysan]

Did not mean for this to turn into a Waterdeep policy focus thread. I have seen mounts/pets left in the Keep and Westgate streets as well. Its a general problem, little to do with IC knowledge of Waterdeep law. I brought up the impounding ability because that is the only player reaction to this behavior I am aware of (besides murder that is). Laws or not, leaving your mount/pet anywhere for an extended period of time that is not a justifiable area for such visitors (won't say stables because quite a few wilderness areas are acceptable for mounts/pets) should have far more risk attached to it.

Lets not forget the second point... I cannot stand seeing mounts/pets wearing inappropriate attire. Take that shirt/belt/whatever off your trusted mount, they don't deserve that abuse!

[Harroghty]

But don't the little dogs look fetching in a tunic?

[Nysan]

But don't the little dogs look fetching in a tunic?

Dog? Maybe... if the color matches the eyes.
Horse? No, we are not riding a collection of Mr. Ed impersonators.

[Lirith]

Who says? If I want to dress my pony as a princess then I will!

[Horace]

If there are laws of Waterdeep, I suggest they be posted elsewhere that all races, aligns, and faiths can visit.

Don't punish a Maskite that could not possibly even know the laws. They shouldn't be expected to follow them even on their best behavior if they didn't know they exist. Much less, would that hold any water in the courts I'd think.

From the Waterdeep sourcebook - Waterdeep has such law abiding citizens that the vast majority of laws are entirely unwritten and just fall under "reasonable discretion". Waterdeep is so incredibly hardlined on what is common sense justice, that they refuse to allow lawyers to practice in their courts.

It's an old system of law - nothing like our modern country's. If a guard witnesses something he feels he should act on, he does. He doesn't have a captain breathing down his neck about protocols, he'll always be backed up within good reason, and for the most part no real evidence is needed, and there is no bail.

Common courts deal with the lower crimes like leaving a 2,000 pound animal unattended in the city (this falls under common sense laws that are unwritten). The Three Magisters who preside don't even need to listen to the witnesses, they can just give judgment immediately. Everything that is serious, goes to the Lord's Court - that is tabled by the Open Lord himself and two others, magisters or lords. All crimes are classified under four "plaints" - think of them as degrees of crimes. 1st degree is any crime against the lords, 2nd degree is any crime against the city, 3rd degree is any crime against the gods, 4th degree is any crime against waterdeep citizens. Littering is a 3rd degree crime, for example. Leaving a horse unattended could be considered 2nd or 4th - depending on the complaint and how the Magisters see it.


I know it's difficult, but we have to separate ourselves from our modern conceptions of what the world is - and try to play within one that is relatively based off of 17th century ideals of law.

[Lerytha]

Buuut, ICly, our overly civilised Lawmakers chose a new legal system, so in a sense, that FR knowledge is supplanted by FK knowledge.

[Keltorn]

1st degree is any crime against the lords, 2nd degree is any crime against the city, 3rd degree is any crime against the gods, 4th degree is any crime against waterdeep citizens. Littering is a 3rd degree crime, for example.

Littering is a crime against the gods? Like, really? Man, I pity anyone whose quill dries out...

Buuut, ICly, our overly civilised Lawmakers chose a new legal system, so in a sense, that FR knowledge is supplanted by FK knowledge.

Bah, beat me to that point. This is one of those things where the distinction between Forgotten Kingdoms and Forgotten Realms becomes apparent. You can bet that the lords of Waterdeep have never been elected officials before (And how could they? They're all anonymous!), but here? That's totally happening.

[Horace]

You guys are missing my point to Selveem's post.

My point is this isn't 2008 Earth. The justice system is nothing like it is here (anywhere you're reading this). And certainly every single possible infraction won't be posted on some sort of magical board that tells all laws. It's common sense.

I'm impressed you kept a reply open that long, Keltorn. I edited that post literally 1 minute after my initial post, 4 hours before your post. That's dedication!

[Raona]

If I had the power to split off this interesting but hijacking discussion of Waterhavian laws, I would - sorry for starting it! (Thank you, though, Horace, for the interesting stuff about canon!) I'll re-raise that issue elsewhere, and ask that any further comments on the topic of Waterdeep's laws be made there.

I'd like to return this post to its focus, a very warranted one: pets are not people too. Nysan's original post sums it up perfectly:

1. Mounts/pets being neglected. We have stables and stable 'areas' for a reason. Just because no one is logged in that has impound powers does not mean you should leave Billy the mule sitting in one of the main streets of Waterdeep.

2. Mounts/pets being overdressed. There are a few grey area pets that one could debate what they should or should not wear. For the most part, everyone should know what their horse, griffon, dog, ect can wear. Just because it is code-allowed for your mount/pet to wear an item, does not mean it is IC to do so, its a code oversight.

Please be mindful of your traveling companions and their treatment.

[Mele]

I dress my cat in things irl that he "should not" wear all the time. Hats shirts pants belts shoes you name it. Just making that point in defence of small animals and SOME clothing.

[Selveem]

Reporting Mele to PETA.. *grins*

[Nysan]

I dress my cat in things irl that he "should not" wear all the time. Hats shirts pants belts shoes you name it. Just making that point in defence of small animals and SOME clothing.

Defiantely, didn't post to address cat/dog fashion crimes. Thats between the pet, owner, and whatever nature deity such color combinations might offend. There is a big difference between kitty embarassment and the horse/griffon misuse that motivated this thread.