Hold Person

[Moloch]

It has been brought to my attention recently that with an extended hold person spell, you are basically unable to do anything for an extended period of time. I just wonder if it is not a bit overpowered. It allows the caster to do basically anything they like and all you can rely on is your own automatic attacks, if they attack you. It lasted something like 30 seconds.

Perhaps some type of limit needs to be put on it, like with timestop how you cannot attack someone while using that spell. Or it purges when they attack?

Just wondering really, not complaining. Please feel free to debate, comment, yell at me

[Lathander]

I think this might bear looking into by the code folks. We limited bash and hitall for fighters (properly so I believe) because of the unbalancing nature of the skill. A repeatedly bashed player has little defense. I can't help but think that this might be similar.

We could examine the following possibilities. Please feel free to add to this list of ideas.

1. Cause the spell to dissipate after one round of combat so that it would work like bash allowing basically one free round. If no attack is made after the spell is enacted, the caster can use that time to escape.
2. Greatly reduce its duration.
3. Not allow it to be extended by feats.
4. Combinations of the above.

[Solaghar]

Whether any of these changes are enacted or not, it might be nice to have a room-displayed emote when spell-effects wear off so that others can see the obvious physical change that would come over someone from a state of complete paralyzation to one of just standing there. There are lots of spells which would benefit from this, actually.

Also I might mention that when a hold spell is cast on someone, it has no obvious effect on their dex even though it should be akin to someone with a completely flatfooted AC. Obviously if someone can't move, then they shouldn't be able to dodge. There are numerous spells which create a hold effect, such as insanity or power word stun. They'd all probably need to have the same adjustment made to them, whatever is determined.

All I'd ask is that whatever is done, don't make the spell useless. It is not a spell that actually works much of the time, numerous races are already completely immune to hold altogether.

[Selveem]

Personally, I believe with the rolling out of so many existing single-hit-spells, I cannot help but think that putting on limitations to the Hold spell is really even worth the effort.

Now, I cannot say for certain, but it seems to me that melee combat damage has been significantly reduced while the sheer power of the arcana and the divine has been amazingly pumped to the point of Godly power.

Now, I trust my fellow players quite a bit. I have continued to do so and will always do so, but the ease of abuse is significant drawback to the game in my opinion. I'm getting off topic.

Personally, with magic as is, I don't think this is overpowered and suggest it remain that way. 30 seconds is a long time, certainly, but have you ever been disentigrated before? I assure you a 30 minute hold is nothing like the time you'll be spending in limbo.

[Lathander]

I agree that someone who is held should not be able to dodge, that just doesn't make sense. If it was duration outside of combat and a one-round thing during combat (no dex applies) that might work.

What we want to avoid is:

Hold for 30 sec
Disintigrate (or any other similar spell)

To me, that's not much different than:

Bash
5 attacks with dual wield
repeat

[Kregor]

Hold person, unlike timestop, actually has a save, and the way it's set up on FK, the chance it gets saved against actually works. As often as not, I've seen the hold be resisted by a particular mob as actually take. This is what sets it apart from insta-death or no save spells. There's no reason, IMO to nerf it, as long as there's a chance for it NOT to work, since this behavior is roughly an approximation to how it works akin to tabletop, unlike some like timestop, which in FK allows you to harm the people affected, and disintegrate, for which saving throws are broken. If a spell works akin to the way it would in tabletop, I see no reason to let it trigger a controversy.

[Dalvyn]

If you don't like hold person, get a spellcaster to cast "freedom of movement" on you?

If you want to avoid being the victim to an insta-death spell, you could get a caster cast "death ward" on you. (Note that all insta-death spells also have some other condition of possible failure: some insta-death spells work only if you fail a saving throw; others do not require any saving throw, but do not work if you have more than a set amount of hit points for example).

Obviously, I recognize that the solution is not perfect: in roleplayed encounters, spells often wear out before the combat actually begins, and so on. But at least, now, there are counter-measures to those things. (Last I check, there was no way to make you immune to knockdown - although "freedom of movement" could be amended to make you so).

[Selveem]

Bash is only very powerful on mobs. Any players who duel will either have stoneskin w/ some sort of offensive shield spell or will be dual wielding to avoid disarm rocking their world.

With the delay on bash (and the chance you knock yourself out???), the chance of disarm (fight with no weapon?), and the extremely short amount of time said bash lasts vs the opponent, I feel it rather humorous that it would even be classed anywhere near spells that will take your health from 100% to -11 in a single cast...

Ah, and Lathander, bashing with dual wield is no longer possible. You must be holding a shield in order to perform a block.

[Lathander]

There's no reason, IMO to nerf it, as long as there's a chance for it NOT to work,

There is also a chance to avoid a bash. Why not put that back in to its previous status then? I forgot about the dual wield bash thing. I remember the days when some players would bash, remove shield, draw an extra weapon, attack with two weapons, remove one weapon, add the shield back, and repeat.

Don't get me wrong. I LIKE spellcasters getting their own equality, it has been far too lopsided against them for a long time. My goal, as everyone's should be, is to make sure the pendulum doesn't swing too far in the other direction.