PvP Looting.

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Alitar
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PvP Looting.

Post by Alitar » Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:32 pm

I'd like to bring up for discussion the idea of removing 'looting' from PK. Naturally if both parties are fine with it, it should be acceptable, but often the case is simply that not all people are fine with it. I feel this will reduce the element of people feeling poorly about what is entailed in PK and this might bring more people out to be willing to become involved in it. Conflict is a healthy part of roleplay however taking items from other players, items that we all work hard to accumulate, causes mixed feelings under most circumstances. I can tell you that for myself, I enjoy PvP and especially enjoy the RP involved with and around it, however, I find myself severely deterred from it for fear of losing items I've worked so very hard to obtain.

Depending on the level of support given on this topic, I would very much like to see a 'noloot' system implimented for a trial period during the coming 'war times' that we might experience and decide how we feel about it.

The goal of the game is, after all, to have fun. This might bring more fun to the table.

Discuss. :) (please, let's try to keep it civil)
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Re: PvP Looting.

Post by Aldren » Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:36 pm

I agree with this as well, but more along the lines of allowing no looting whatsoever. I don't think anyone benefits from it and, in the end, it only takes away from a character, whether it's attitude change or loss of items/gear.

I think removing the ability for characters to loot from one another during a PK situation would take away a lot of the fears players have about getting their characters involved in hostile RPs (therefore leading to PKs).
"He served, but found no pride in service. He fought, but took no joy in victory. He drank, to drown his pain in a sea of wine... ...It was hate that drove him. Though he committed many sins, he never sought forgiveness."

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Re: PvP Looting.

Post by Hrosskell » Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:50 pm

While I'm heavily inclined to tell you to piss off and express my desire to take your stuff (j/k, but he dared me), I do see where times of courtesy can be important--you know, always. I think that FK has a fairly mature community in regards to this kind of stuff, and it's not a very high concern for me. Personally, aside from a very recent RP, the last player looting I saw was a about a year ago; I play a thief, and the last time I stole from a PC was half a decade ago. I think that the commands should stay as they are though--the one item rule has served for many years, especially considering that people often don't take anything. I'd rather leave it to people's discretion; it seems much more worthy that way.

Maybe I'm naive to think that everyone operates the way I do, but I really am almost certain that this is a non-issue. The MUD doesn't seem to be in a state of high thievery or looting, and I would assume that's because people recognize that we all put a lot of work into obtaining the things we do and making our characters the way they are. The occasional RP is healthy, and can bring stuff up, but I think in the end that everyone here knows what it would take to push them away from the game--OOC harassment, poorly handled interactions of a PvP nature, stuff like that--and stays away from it out of love for the game itself; for surely every single person here is an addition to the game.

That being said, I would issue a plea to the community to maintain that level head in the days to come. Tensions rising and plots playing out are the soul of this game, and in the last few days it has been the most soulful, heroic, and meaningful game around. Keep it that way! Keep up the drama, the tension, and remember that while there are people behind the screen, we've the maturity to express the characters in the game as they should be--not as ourselves, but as they are in a living, breathing world.
Jamais arriere.

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Re: PvP Looting.

Post by Tarven » Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:58 pm

Yeah, as someone who has both obtained and lost items recently in PvP situations, I'm opposed to this. I won't get into details, but I think it's pretty hypocritical of the OP, considering lengths that have been gone to in order to win PvP situations.

In addition, there are a number of IC reasons why a player may wish to attack another player over items. Perhaps player B thinks that player A took advantage of them to obtain an item away from them, for example.

Instead of looking at this as a bad thing, look at item looting as an opportunity for RP and continued conflict. Conflict which is, essentially, RP. I would point out the RP that was created in the early days of the conflict between Aldren and myself. How much buzz was created. Prior to that, I was seeing a lot of RP that involved, "So. Lovely weather, hm?"

This isn't a 'pretty' world we play in. Conflict, drives, etc, change from player to player. I think that removing this aspect is silly. If nothing else, it's a deterrent for people to haphazardly PK, for fear that the person's friends are going to come after you. From the very beginning of the conflict, I actually enjoyed having to think on my feet, look over my shoulder (as it were) and be ready for the impending consequences that I knew were there.

But that's a two way street.

However, I've been brainstorming some ideas how to make PvP -more- RP oriented, through a possible update to the killmode spar system (Though, not sure how viable some of this is). If this goes through, you might as well remove the thief class from the game entirely. We already cannot assassinate. To say that we can't steal, either?

I agree that it needs to be handled responsibly, and that knowledge of the rules outlined in help pk is essential to keep things running smoothly. I was discussing with someone OOCly the possibility of making each new character go through a short quest, perhaps like the one at the end of the newbie area, where you have to answer important questions from the help PK file.

Ultimately, PvP here should be semi-voluntary. There should always be an out. Posing mid-conversation that you're attacking someone, and then immediately murdering them without giving them a chance to respond (which I've seen happen by at least 3 different players), is a technique that might help win, but isn't very sporting, nor realistic from an RP standpoint.

At any rate, I digress. I think that the fear of losing items is about the only thing that keeps it from being a constant bloodbath around here. PvP should be -part- of the game. Not the focus.

All that being said, I do think having a 'war season' (I've seen this done on other games) is an interesting concept. Or even during a specifically created 'story event'. I believe it's -entirely- reasonable to say that during those times, no looting of corpses occurs. Perhaps if it's possible to create situations where 'ransoms' must be paid (such as putting manacles on someone that can be locked, restricting their movement) then there can be some fun in that. Especially if said ransom were kept to a reasonable amount, 50-100p. This is also realistic of 'nobles' during wartimes.

Just my 2-bits on the subject.

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Re: PvP Looting.

Post by Gwain » Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:48 pm

I think that it should go as; only the parties involved in a pk, meaning the first or second player can take one item if they successfully kill that character, and that the item in question can be reasonably recovered. The last part is an ooc consideration, since hopefully most of our pk play is motivated by ic intentions, we can step back and see the items we take as being crafted lovingly through glory or earned through ic actions as being the ooc property of the player until they choose to relinquish them. So icly we would make an rp available for them to recover the items or if they are the cursed relics of a faith enemy or mortal enemy, turn them over to proper authorities or even anonymously mail them back to the player they were pilfered from. This or something else agreed with that player in question.

But if that can't be done, I would not mind the rules changing, if people are taking ooc offence or looting for ooc reasons to make other players uncomfortable, then pk looting should be banned or only made possible through an ooc agreement beforehand between the players. I'm off the opinion that at the end of the day we're all mature individuals and we can take a few minutes before a fight to arrange the rules, or the rules can hinder us completely from doing things that won't go over well.
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Re: PvP Looting.

Post by Selveem » Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:40 pm

As someone who was one of the worst (if not, THE worst) looters of the history of this game, I know first hand the amount of suffering I've caused on others and, using that as a basis for my argument, I can certainly get behind the removal of looting other player's corpses.

I think only one other person knows this, but Selveem's creation was a penance for one of the people whose house I (fully?) looted. Even though I was forgiven by two of the three people, the feeling has never left me. It's one of the poor decisions I regret to this day.

I'm not trying to appeal to emotion here as my form of argument, but explain the reasoning behind it:

Theft and Looting is more detrimental to the game than any positives it has brought. Despite this Pandora's Box, there is some good in it and because of this I think it should remain. I remember a specific example where an Imm-run RP was masterfully derailed by an evil thief who RPed everything out well. It was, as far as I know, completely unexpected and entirely awesome. The event was far more memorable due to that player's RP and interference.

So, I will agree with the Hross: let it remain as is. People who want to be jackasses are dealt with severely. I would know. It's important to remember that we all play together, regardless of whether you like that person or not, it's an additional personality that others may enjoy playing with. The more diversity the MUD has, the better it is for it. :)
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Re: PvP Looting.

Post by Althasizor » Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:02 pm

This is pointless, and in light of everything that's happened lately, I agree hypocritical. I will say, if someone has an item stolen and then given no opportunity for it's return, then I can see it. But there are already rules in place against this, and if someone is not willing to actually RP when their character loses something, that's probably something to think on instead of disallowing this. While the goal of the game is to have fun, it says something if people cannot -continue- having fun because an item was taken for RP purposes. In my honest opinion, the burden of blame doesn't lie on the person taking the item if not everyone is having fun in an RP they'd previously invested their time and energy into.

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Re: PvP Looting.

Post by Alitar » Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:10 am

While the goal of the game is to have fun, it says something if people cannot -continue- having fun because an item was taken for RP purposes. In my honest opinion, the burden of blame doesn't lie on the person taking the item if not everyone is having fun in an RP they'd previously invested their time and energy into.
The total truth is that while the burden of blame really doesn't belong on the person taking the item, it still creates bad feelings with the looted player. The PK helpfile asks that we "Be considerate of quest items, renamed items, or any unique items." For many of us, we'll simply never touch these items because these items are immensely valuable to the owning player.

"Be considerate of quest items, renamed items, or any unique items."

I just want to reiterate that line because I think most hard feelings can be avoided be following it. Might we perhaps adjust the line to say, "Don't take" instead of "Be considerate of"? This could set march of the hard feelings aside.

The obvious argument here, is that people who have renamed all their valuable items suddenly feel like they have an immunity to having their good items looted and that just simply isn't the case as I see it. Taking of those favourite items will suddenly cease to happen but that doesn't mean there is nothing left to loot. Take a holy symbol and suddenly the character should have the biggest IC grudge you could imagine while still refraining from causing hard feelings.
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Re: PvP Looting.

Post by Tarven » Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:36 am

Alitar wrote:
While the goal of the game is to have fun, it says something if people cannot -continue- having fun because an item was taken for RP purposes. In my honest opinion, the burden of blame doesn't lie on the person taking the item if not everyone is having fun in an RP they'd previously invested their time and energy into.
The total truth is that while the burden of blame really doesn't belong on the person taking the item, it still creates bad feelings with the looted player. The PK helpfile asks that we "Be considerate of quest items, renamed items, or any unique items." For many of us, we'll simply never touch these items because these items are immensely valuable to the owning player.

"Be considerate of quest items, renamed items, or any unique items."

I just want to reiterate that line because I think most hard feelings can be avoided be following it. Might we perhaps adjust the line to say, "Don't take" instead of "Be considerate of"? This could set march of the hard feelings aside.

The obvious argument here, is that people who have renamed all their valuable items suddenly feel like they have an immunity to having their good items looted and that just simply isn't the case as I see it. Taking of those favourite items will suddenly cease to happen but that doesn't mean there is nothing left to loot. Take a holy symbol and suddenly the character should have the biggest IC grudge you could imagine while still refraining from causing hard feelings.
Again, this from the guy who took a quest reward item, while violating PvP policies, that cannot be replaced. It's just extremely hypocritical.

"Be considerate of" means you should give every opportunity for them to get it back. That was done. What -better- item to take than the one that's -really- valuable to the person, so long as you offer to sell it or trade it back.

I think, perhaps, a rule of, "No item renamed for glory should ever be destroyed" might be fair. But to say that you can't take it is extreme, and unnecessary. You -claim- that you're all about RP, and not about objects. So turn it into an RP thing. If there are no repercussions for going around PVPing people all the time, then it will become -less- RP oriented, not more.

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Re: PvP Looting.

Post by Gwain » Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:14 am

Relax.

I find the helpfile to be well written on this. I've never looted a player because of ic rp restrictions on my characters, but I've been the victim. And it went really well, the player in question took the time to rp and make sure I had a way to retrieve my item, and they chose an item that was reasonable for someone like them to icly take. They did not need to go to that length but it worked out well, if there was ooc motivation or something, I had no idea. If they failed to return it, I had the option to replace it. But someone took the time to follow the helpfile and it worked out. I like the helpfile and I like the OPP one (Other people's property)
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Re: PvP Looting.

Post by Pakur » Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:46 am

I don't think it should be removed for all of the reasons stated in the posts above. Help OPP , Help Looting, and Help Strikes are enough
to protect people from abuse. If I kill that faith enemy, bet your arse I'll take his God given blade, or helm, gauntlets or whathaveyou. But also know, that
I'll worry about that player's feelings, OOC, until they get that item back. Certain items mean a lot to us. We all know and recognize that fact and (I hope)
we all have respect for one another when it comes to taking items from one another.
Wise men, when in doubt whether to speak or to keep quiet, give themselves the benefit of the doubt, and remain silent. - Napoleon Hill

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Re: PvP Looting.

Post by Aldren » Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:54 am

Pakur sums it up nicely. If we all show a bit of consideration, I see no immediate need for changing anything.
"He served, but found no pride in service. He fought, but took no joy in victory. He drank, to drown his pain in a sea of wine... ...It was hate that drove him. Though he committed many sins, he never sought forgiveness."

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