Stone Body vs Stone Skin?

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Tarven
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Stone Body vs Stone Skin?

Post by Tarven » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:13 pm

Just out of curiosity, why is Stone Skin abjuration, but Stone Body transmutation?

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Re: Stone Body vs Stone Skin?

Post by Gwain » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:26 pm

It is possible that some spells are staggered in order to give classes or guilds the option to use them where they would not have them available. But I don't know if this is the case here.
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Re: Stone Body vs Stone Skin?

Post by Casamir » Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:13 am

Is it not a case of natures in the spells? One abjures a ward like stone around the skin, where as the other transmutes you into living stone.
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Re: Stone Body vs Stone Skin?

Post by Gwain » Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:15 am

That could also be the case. Its like Astral walk being necromatic, because of astral projection.
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Re: Stone Body vs Stone Skin?

Post by Tarven » Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:01 am

Hm. I guess I could see that, to an extent. What then does Abjuration get for the giant lacking of transmutation spells? Seems silly that Transmutation not only gets a spell equivalent to their opposing guild, but a -better- one.

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Re: Stone Body vs Stone Skin?

Post by Nylo » Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:31 pm

I've used stoneskin and stone body extensively - and in my opinion, stoneskin is by far the better spell. Abjurers definitely get the short end in spells, though.
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Re: Stone Body vs Stone Skin?

Post by Tarven » Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:53 pm

Ah, well, I presumed it was the better, since it's much higher level. Granted, the str and con boosts to a transmuter aren't all that useful, since they get other, better, buffs. Still, it seems like transmuters should have to make some pretty hefty sacrifices, for what they gain. Damage resistance would be a good start.

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Re: Stone Body vs Stone Skin?

Post by Nylo » Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:34 pm

Basically transmuters don't recieve much benefit over any other specialist, when it comes to transmutation spells. They're able to gm spells, yes, but the only spell I could see gm having a huge advantage, when it comes to buffs, would be polymorph IF it were changed to match srd. As it is, the lack of abjuration far more than negates any advantage a transmuter might have - I wouldn't go transmuter, if I had the choice again. Stone body is +4 str, -4 dex. No con bonus. The duration is much shorter than stoneskin, as well.
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Re: Stone Body vs Stone Skin?

Post by Tarven » Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:51 pm

Polymorph? Really? If that was changed to SRD, the highest HD you could change to would be 15. That would exclude a LARGE number of creatures that are currently being used to abusive extent.

However, transmuters also get magic weapon, the mass stat buff spells, earth reaver, flensing, weapon of energy, dragonskin (which partially negates the loss of the resist element spells. In fact, oh.. wait.. it's better than the ones lost out in abjuration. Again.). Oh, and shall we mention one of the most powerful wizard spells in the game, Time Stop?

Disintegrate? A spell that when maximized and GM'd can do 240 damage in a single go? (Based on SRD, lord knows what it is here).

Oh. Yeah. Transmuters have it soooo bad. I maintain, losing damage resistance as a tradeoff isn't that big of a deal. There's a great deal of benefit, and not much tradeoff, for transmutation. Even the lack of the shield spell can be partially compensated with rings of shield, and fully compensated with wands of shield (if at a lesser duration, but regardless).

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Re: Stone Body vs Stone Skin?

Post by Nylo » Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:40 pm

Look, I'm not saying transmuters don't get awesome spells, I'm saying that the difference in max skill level, between transmuters and conjurers say - for most spells it's negligible. A minute or two duration here, a few die of damage there - it's not worth it to me. It all depends on the person playing it. I find myself really missing spells like dispel magic, antimagic shell, and energy immunity, just to name a few. Time stop - I know two wizards who have it, neither of which are active players. There is no ingame trainer. As for magic weapon - it is useless to me, for various reasons. I'm not saying it's useless, just that it is to me. And flensing? It has an evil flag on it, and the only transmuters guild ingame is in Silverymoon. Not a great match, imo. Polymorph HD - I was under the impression that meant the form would take the HD of the caster, rather than that of the base form, not as a restriction on how powerful a form. I'll defer to you there, though, as I've never played tabletop.
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Re: Stone Body vs Stone Skin?

Post by Tarven » Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:04 pm

Nylo wrote:Look, I'm not saying transmuters don't get awesome spells, I'm saying that the difference in max skill level, between transmuters and conjurers say - for most spells it's negligible. A minute or two duration here, a few die of damage there - it's not worth it to me. It all depends on the person playing it. I find myself really missing spells like dispel magic, antimagic shell, and energy immunity, just to name a few. Time stop - I know two wizards who have it, neither of which are active players.
There are wizards, active, who have it.
Polymorph HD - I was under the impression that meant the form would take the HD of the caster, rather than that of the base form, not as a restriction on how powerful a form. I'll defer to you there, though, as I've never played tabletop.
How can you say that it doesn't compare to SRD, if you've never played SRD?

Let's take elementals as a basic example. Large elementals are 8hd. Huge elementals are 16hd. Therefore, if this were tabletop, you could only become an 8HD elemental.

Also, based on SRD:

The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

That means no damage resistance, no magic resistance, no laser eyes, etc. You've got it better than you know, so please, drop the QQing about Poly and SRD. If anyone is getting the screw on that deal, it's druids, who are supposed to have a lot more, and powerful, options.

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Re: Stone Body vs Stone Skin?

Post by Nylo » Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:38 pm

But still - all these spells are available to non transmuters. What is it that makes transmuters so powerful they don't need dr? Especially for those of us who would rather spend time rping, than off in a cave disintegrating goblins to reach gm?
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Re: Stone Body vs Stone Skin?

Post by Selveem » Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:11 pm

Nylo wrote:Basically transmuters don't recieve much benefit over any other specialist
This statement is blatantly false. I ran the numbers for Zorinar and there was a discussion about it.

Please see this post.
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Re: Stone Body vs Stone Skin?

Post by Aldren » Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:26 pm

I humbly suggest we keep game suggestions and forum posts in general to a constructive tone and allow everyone to voice their opinions. Aggressive posts and telling people to "stop QQing" does not do other players any good and, in my personal opinion, makes players who would otherwise post their opinions refuse to on the grounds of them not wanting to get attacked and berated on a forum.

Just my thoughts.

Thanks, and let's keep up the good, constructive ideas that can benefit the MUD as a whole.
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Re: Stone Body vs Stone Skin?

Post by Alitar » Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:27 pm

Thank you Aldren, this really needed to be said.
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Re: Stone Body vs Stone Skin?

Post by Nylo » Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:45 pm

Selveem wrote:
Nylo wrote:Basically transmuters don't recieve much benefit over any other specialist
This statement is blatantly false. I ran the numbers for Zorinar and there was a discussion about it.

Please see this post.
You're right, as far as those numbers go. I should have specified, I'm not interested in grinding to gm, generally. I'm basing my opinion on the spells available, or lack of them. While transmuters are by no means a weak class, the way I play means I'd gladly give up the ability to gm all these spells, in exchange for abjuration.
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Re: Stone Body vs Stone Skin?

Post by Pakur » Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:02 pm

I prefer Stone Skin over Stone Body.You can cast it on other
group members (mainly your meat-shields) to help keep you alive
longer. Just a personal preference, but I'm glad to have Stone Body
as a Transmuter


Edited: Off topic
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Re: Stone Body vs Stone Skin?

Post by Tarven » Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:33 pm

Aldren wrote:I humbly suggest we keep game suggestions and forum posts in general to a constructive tone and allow everyone to voice their opinions. Aggressive posts and telling people to "stop QQing" does not do other players any good and, in my personal opinion, makes players who would otherwise post their opinions refuse to on the grounds of them not wanting to get attacked and berated on a forum.

Just my thoughts.

Thanks, and let's keep up the good, constructive ideas that can benefit the MUD as a whole.
You have a fair point. Let's keep the QQing to AIM.

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Re: Stone Body vs Stone Skin?

Post by Pakur » Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:29 pm

Tarven wrote:
Aldren wrote:I humbly suggest we keep game suggestions and forum posts in general to a constructive tone and allow everyone to voice their opinions. Aggressive posts and telling people to "stop QQing" does not do other players any good and, in my personal opinion, makes players who would otherwise post their opinions refuse to on the grounds of them not wanting to get attacked and berated on a forum.

Just my thoughts.

Thanks, and let's keep up the good, constructive ideas that can benefit the MUD as a whole.
You have a fair point. Let's keep the QQing to AIM.

And let's keep the trolling on WoW.
Wise men, when in doubt whether to speak or to keep quiet, give themselves the benefit of the doubt, and remain silent. - Napoleon Hill

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