{Leveling/Training}

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Valenus
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{Leveling/Training}

Post by Valenus » Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:03 am

I would like to start off by saying that I really like the skills and level progression of this game. It is the best I have come across. The only flaw is that it takes way too long to level or train skills. Even if you have +4 intelligence it still takes over 100 hours of solid grinding to grandmaster a weapon skill. For a mud that stresses RP and frowns upon those who grind, I am surprised to see how long it takes to grandmaster a skill. If you would rather players RP more, then make it so we can without having to grind for 1000 kismet just to avoid being stepped on by a few NPCs. Sure you can RP at level one for hours and hours but come on, this game is a mid-eval fantasy game. If all we wanted to do is smote we can just text each other. The RP that I enjoy is war/dueling based RP. You can only RP about picking daisies in the meadow for so long without going insane. :|

Make skills and levels more attainable = More players wont be scared off by having to play for most of their lives to do a single PK. More will play and our game will jump up in the ranking list :)

Thats my opinion. Agree, disagree, rant, rave or ignore.
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Re: {Leveling/Training}

Post by Harroghty » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:31 am

Your opinion is your opinion, but I will submit to you that there is a middle ground between only grinding and picking daisies. You get the best of both worlds when you get a group of other PCs together and train jointly, either by all attacking one more powerful adversary (teaming up against those really tough training golems), training in the same area and talking while you grind, or practicing against one another.

Believe me, I've done my share of grinding and I know how you feel! Still, there are ways to have the best of both worlds, I think.
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Re: {Leveling/Training}

Post by Orplar » Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:32 am

I have to concur with Harroghty. I've gotten into the habbit of sparring/teaching/dummy grinding like this. It covers all areas I need to have an enjoyable experience.
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Re: {Leveling/Training}

Post by Selveem » Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:26 am

I have to agree with the new guy on this one, with exception to the PVP portion. I've seen plenty of people engage in PVP who weren't max level nor had a single skill/spell GMed. For those that have the innate drive to win, they might wait as Valenus suggested, but I think most people DGAF as long as they at least put up a good fight. For the record, you hardly need to GM stuff (especially as a caster) to win against others.

As a person who has been on this MUD for 10 years, I've noticed there are some skills and spells that take ridiculously long amounts of time to get an increase in. Some, such as grip, I had never even SEEN an increase in until fairly recently (except via trainer, obviously).

I think part of the problem with long-time players is that they tend to accept the things they don't expect to see change. Instead of bringing it to debate and hearing the loud clashes of minds, people would rather keep things quiet to themselves than be branded an wave-maker, metagamer, or otherwise simply "dissatisfied person." The fact of the matter is that it used to be pretty easy to level. Now, it takes a long time. For those of us with limited time, it's a rather daunting obstacle. For those with a short attention span, it's probably the coup de grace. Obviously, though I'm a very modest person, I'm very outspoken and willing to share my thoughts and immense wisdom freely. (Get the joke?!) :D

I understand where the concern comes from. I used to craft a lot. Now, the very thought of crafting saps my motivation. There are countless other skills/spells like crafting and grip that can be easily brought to mention, but I doubt anyone actually needs me to.
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Re: {Leveling/Training}

Post by Briek » Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:28 pm

Harroghty wrote:there is a middle ground between only grinding and picking daisies.
Pretty much my thoughts, even if it was made easier practice and grinding are a part of getting good at a skill
and that is realistic, you can become passable at anything fairly quickly but to become a master of the piano lets
just say well that takes years.
Harroghty wrote:Believe me, I've done my share of grinding and I know how you feel!
me too, I must admit there are some skills where I have thought it must be broken or something!
but eventually things do start to happen and I have found plenty of time to roleplay too.

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Re: {Leveling/Training}

Post by Brar » Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:18 pm

One question only, where would be the difference between characters if evey character are GM in everything in a few weeks...
Then let's remove skill levels altogether, it's actually easier no?

For me, a normal skill level is apprentice/journeyman, past that it's specialization and you can't specialize in everything, not without a lot lot lot of playing.
I brought a character from inept to adept in weaponsmithing since the introduction of the new system.
I don't find it that slow... of course, I don't expect it to hit GM after at least one more year but that's long term play and I have no issue with that, I would be sick to see people becoming GM after 6 months and a swarm of GM people, then being GM would have no more meaning.
Now, it's requires long term sight and dedication, as a craft should in any game in my eyes.

For people with short attention span, perhaps (and I say perhaps) a RP game is not really suited well, stories of a character can goes on for years, that's the point of playing a rp game for me, I don't understand the benefits of being GM after let's say 6 months? Then what do you do after that? There is no "end game" repeatable content like in modern MMO, the end-game reapeatable content here is Roleplay, and you don't need any skills for that.

Just my opinion,
Brar

PvP part I won't comment for people knows I don't care about it.
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Re: {Leveling/Training}

Post by Lathander » Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:32 pm

Who cares if a skill is GMd quickly? Those who've been here forever have a few. Those who stay here a long time will eventually get theirs. Stick around, become part of the world and EVENTUALLY you'll be there too. All choices are trade offs. Have 100 PCs in your account that you switch from regularly? Well, it'll take any one of them longer to be GM at anything. Have on you play exclusively? That PC's reputation and skill will improve more quickly (albeit not fast!). Stay in FK for the lonnnnng term and your PC becomes an iconic figure with some GM'd skills. I agree with Harroghty. Man, it always hurts soooo much to say that.
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Re: {Leveling/Training}

Post by Nysan » Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:48 pm

Want to know how many skills/weapons/spells Gilain, Siros, or Nysan have GM'ed? Not as many as some think. (I dont count languages/trades.) Does it really show when they are fighting other players? Not really. Siros holds his own, few enjoy a fight with Nysan, and old Gilain gives anyone a run for their money. Fighting NPCs, well... can't win them all, even long-time lvl 50s die now and then. :wink:

Far as leveling is concerned, I resort to my mining outlook. Mining takes FOREVER!!!!, even moreso when you are not some fancy priest.
Now, if you are sitting in a cave doing nothing but typing stand,mine,mine,mine,mine,mine,mine,mine,mine,sit/rest, it will be the longest, most boring experience in your life.
On the other hand, if someone is with you, if you are sending tells, or doing anything along with the mining, it doesn't feel as long.

Training/using any skill/weapon/language is the same way. If it is just you and a room full of practice dummies, yeah it'll be boring. So, break up the tedium with someone or something else. Stop watching the water boil and it'll boil faster!
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Re: {Leveling/Training}

Post by Anguin » Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:42 pm

Took me 500 hours to grandmaster my first weapon. Woot!

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Re: {Leveling/Training}

Post by Gwain » Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:07 am

6500 hours later I've gone expert on two weapons and gm'd three automatic skills. I've spent precisely 48 hours training and the rest rping. I'm not a good example of someone using their time to train to adequate levels. The game itself favours the group dynamic moreso than times past. Which is good and bad, good in the sense that group dynamics are good for roleplay and safer for dangerous dungeons, and bad for those that are casual and often try to level alone. I think for the most part things are balanced, not easy, but not impossible in the right conditions. It will become more apparent as the playerbase grows and there are more priests available to offer raising, more fighters to hire, more wizards to cast and more sneakers to recover the dead.
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Re: {Leveling/Training}

Post by Selveem » Sun Dec 19, 2010 5:02 am

Lathander wrote:Who cares if a skill is GMd quickly?
There's a difference between 'quickly' and 10 years. :)
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Re: {Leveling/Training}

Post by Brar » Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:44 am

If you focus on gming one skill and it takes you ten years. Then clearly the method is wrong.

And exagerating isn't helping the debate either.
Sometimes a change of training method is what gives you the boost you need to master your stuff. To gm any skill I think with a complete focus it should takes around a year. Weapons and additional attacks excluded.
But it would be a year of focusing on that skill with the corect method and that usually involve group play.
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Re: {Leveling/Training}

Post by Raona » Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:10 pm

In my personal opinion (I'm not speaking authoritatively as staff here), I think it is a mistaken notion that being a GM in even one thing should be routine, let alone easy. What I find odd is that some people do spend the time required to do it. I just don't have that kind of time, folks! What time I do have, I'm not going to spend grinding.

I will observe that "training" gets harder as you advance in level, if you are alone, and if you are doing the same thing over and over. Basically, if you don't level up as fast as possible, if you play in groups when the chance arises, and only use a skill when you actually need that skill, you may find, as I have, that while you will not GM much, most of your skills will rise slowly but steadily. [For example, I find meditate goes up at just the right pace, through using meditate when you need it.]

In my mind the primary problem is with the perception/expectation of where a PC should be at a given age and level, not with the difficulty the game imposes in getting there. That said, there are certainly some "broken" skills that just don't go up at a reasonable rate (and others that go up too fast). These don't get fixed because it can be very hard indeed to demonstrate/test/confirm that such is the case. (I speak from experience here!) That said, if you know of a skill that goes up too slowly, in the course of normal use (NOT GRINDING), report it on the Bug Reporting forum, one skill per post. Maybe also mention a skill that goes up too quickly, for the sake of balance. Don't post a bunch at once, or I'll probably get discouraged and skip over them all. (I'm human, and testing these is a boring bummer!) Pick the skill that is the most out of whack, and that matters the most...and don't assume that everyone will agree with you that the skill trains too slowly! (As here)

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Re: {Leveling/Training}

Post by Briek » Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:13 pm

Selveem wrote:There's a difference between 'quickly' and 10 years.
I know which skill your thinking of, grip.

but here's the thing....how often in the last ten years until recently were pc's actually disarmed by mobs?

the point being is that it is sometimes impossible to create the right conditions to practice every skill
and that is just how it is and should be accepted.
Raona wrote:What I find odd is that some people do spend the time required to do it.
There's nothing wrong with grinding away at a skill in my opinion, we just have face facts...it does
take time.

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Re: {Leveling/Training}

Post by Isaldur » Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:29 pm

Briek wrote:
Selveem wrote:There's a difference between 'quickly' and 10 years.
I know which skill your thinking of, grip.

but here's the thing....how often in the last ten years until recently were pc's actually disarmed by mobs?

the point being is that it is sometimes impossible to create the right conditions to practice every skill
and that is just how it is and should be accepted.
Raona wrote:What I find odd is that some people do spend the time required to do it.
There's nothing wrong with grinding away at a skill in my opinion, we just have face facts...it does
take time.
I can think of one temple that has dummies that were purposely built to disarm and help players train grip, and that was put in at least 8 years ago if not 9.
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Re: {Leveling/Training}

Post by Selveem » Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:33 pm

Brar wrote: If you focus on gming one skill and it takes you ten years. Then clearly the method is wrong.
It's impossible to focus on some skills. Take grip, for example. There are only a few places where mobs constantly attempt to disarm over and over and in those areas, such mobs are not very many. Then, you must wait for repop. Other "skills" like the higher echelon of spells you get very limited casts. Then, you must meditate.

Before you presume I'm doing something wrong, try it yourself. :)
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Re: {Leveling/Training}

Post by Selveem » Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:36 pm

Isaldur wrote:I can think of one temple that has dummies that were purposely built to disarm and help players train grip, and that was put in at least 8 years ago if not 9.
Which is great for the members of that faith, but everyone else is left hung out to dry. :D
This land shall come to the God who knows the answer to War. -Ninety-Nine Nights

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Re: {Leveling/Training}

Post by Brar » Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:37 pm

Selveem wrote:
Brar wrote: If you focus on gming one skill and it takes you ten years. Then clearly the method is wrong.
It's impossible to focus on some skills. Take grip, for example. There are only a few places where mobs constantly attempt to disarm over and over and in those areas, such mobs are not very many. Then, you must wait for repop. Other "skills" like the higher echelon of spells you get very limited casts. Then, you must meditate.

Before you presume I'm doing something wrong, try it yourself. :)
Training with another player who disarm you. That's the best way to do it. And you can even roleplay at the same time, how wonderful.
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Re: {Leveling/Training}

Post by Selveem » Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:55 pm

Brar wrote:Training with another player who disarm you. That's the best way to do it. And you can even roleplay at the same time, how wonderful.
Good way to get banned, too.

Realistically, two people engaging in such a behavior would at the very least be looked unfavorably upon by staff.

Even still, convincing another player to engage in such a repetitious behavior is a bit inconsiderate. You can only disarm in combat as a fighter. Thus, at the very least, you'd both need to:
  • both be in killmode spar
  • have the helper attack you
  • immediately hit enter with 'disarm' already typed (or type it in-round if you're fast enough)
  • repeat until low on hp
  • request healing from a third party (mobs are nearly useless in this sense)
You think players can get away with all that? Good luck.
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Re: {Leveling/Training}

Post by Brar » Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:31 pm

Since when roleplaying (I insist on this word) spar is frowned upon?
It is not that different than mining with others. As long as you roleplay while doing it (as opposed to blindly spamming keys) I don t think anybody would have a problem with that. Or I think we aren't playing the same game with the same staff.
The keyword is roleplay. It can even lead to a very fun experience and involves in the end more than 2 people.
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