Market wards

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Re: Market wards

Postby Yemin » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:24 pm

A faintly amusing response. Though this topic is partially a conversation about what principles govern that power as well. Playing here is a privelledge, management anywhere is a responsibility full of such principles.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!
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Re: Market wards

Postby Alitar » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:27 pm

"Waterdeep forms powerful antimagic ward in Market Centre to prevent widespread use of charm magics to coerce merchants."

Not hard to come up with a plausible reason ICly. Or to overlook it and just step out to cast.
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Re: Market wards

Postby Yemin » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:52 pm

Alitar wrote:
"Waterdeep forms powerful antimagic ward in Market Centre to prevent widespread use of charm magics to coerce merchants."

Not hard to come up with a plausible reason ICly. Or to overlook it and just step out to cast.


*Out*?? I'm already outside.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Your IC justification is plausible, just not authentic.
Doesn't cover the whole market, nor any other areas of commerce. It'd be cheaper just to give the richer merchants amulets or something.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!
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Re: Market wards

Postby Althasizor » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:49 am

The OOC reason for the wards was already given, and the IC justification Alitar used as an example doesn't strike me as inauthentic. If it or other examples given in this thread don't satisfy you, head canon your own reasons. If on an IC level it's -that- important for your character to reveal their weaknesses by announcing to a crowded market square what defenses they do/don't keep up at all times, they can always post up on the noteboard saying as much - and buff on the way back to market.
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Re: Market wards

Postby Yemin » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:09 am

Not a very helpful response, thanks for stopping by I guess.

I simply don't think this kind of coded response to a non abusive, non IC breaking, or non harrassing behaviour is an effective or principled response that should be taken against perceived spam. There was and still is I believe already a room that doesn't allow casting within Waterdeep and not terribly far from the market. Were another such room placed within the museum or font instead I would have less of an issue. That and those potentials at least, makes sense for it to be there. I'll thank you not to mock me for putting forward a rather benign opinion. Simply bcause it disagrees with your own. Discussion leads to disagreement sometimes.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!
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Re: Market wards

Postby Areia » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:35 am

Alright, one last thing, and maybe then I'll give up on this one lol. I promise I wasn't really too worried one way or the other come original post, but now I'm kinda just super interested why the support for the wards seems so relatively strong.

A Common Square at the Junction of Several Roads
The sky is hot and clear and a hot southerly gust blows.
Corpses sway gently in the wind from several gibbets. (bad)
A small dark spheroid drifts high above, across the skies of Faerun. (perfect)
A common fountain of dark stone gurgles here. (very good)
A Zhentilar soldier is here.

cast
OOC: Please make sure that this spell is an urgent/necessary one and not
One that will end up spamming all those in the room.


I'd be interested to know how people feel about that method of discouraging spam. If it's not sufficient for WD, why not there while also being sufficient in ZK, if there is any reason beyond ZK's relatively smaller PC population, which I'd call irrelevant because even WD MS hosts only a handful most times?

WD MS already gives OOC echos for going AFK either by setting the command manually or by idling. I'd say AFKing, especially manually AFKing, in MS is very rare, I presume, at least in part because of those echos. So they help to remind people who need reminding. And even when it does happen, usually more than one person will give the AFKer grief about it, the AFKer will go elsewhere not to be a problem anymore, and there's no fuss. So why does this supposed spam--one form of many, many forms of spam we find in meeting places, including amulets, eating, etc.--another OOC issue, need to be solved so heavy-handedly with mindless, non-discriminating, and not-overly-believable restrictions IC in this one of many several common get-together rooms?
adspiciam posthac at certe semper amabo
. semper maesta tua carmina morte canam
qualia sub densis ramorum concinit umbris
. Daulias absumpti fata gemens Ityli
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Re: Market wards

Postby Althasizor » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:51 pm

Presumably, because a Lord is going to have a pretty hard time getting a ward against people eating approved at city council.

(Which is why we lynch eaters instead)
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Re: Market wards

Postby Yemin » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:05 pm

As an aside and slightly off topic though related.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21091&p=137454&hilit=food+clock#p137454

As per that thread, some people find the hunger code currently pointless. But it is still a functioning part of the game.

Your additions, though sometime snide highlight mine. I find the MKC wards a form of unnecessary intrusion because like it or not, casting in an open area isn't rude IC or OC, neither is eating. If anything, you are purposely choosing to adhere to one form of code, that being the MKC wards, and ignoring the other, that being the hunger code, simply because for some reason you choose to interpret a few extra lines in your output window as OOC rude. Why not simply be constructive, there are foods in the game that don't give an echo when eaten. Why not try asking for those to become more common rather than complaining about a nonproblem.

Likewise, it'd actually solve my issue and everyone elses if you couldn't see casting echoes in the market / ZK center / other crowde dplaces. Its big, and crowded, the game doesn't have echoes of merchants becrying their wares every few seconds. Its reasonable to me that you wouldn't also catch it if someone in a crowd was casting a spell.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!
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Re: Market wards

Postby Areia » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:09 pm

Not sure if that last post was directed toward me or Alth, but to be clear, in my case at least, I likewise don't find those other things to be problems and wouldn't actually complain about them in any serious way. Things like those did used to bug me, but then I discovered this magical thing called GAG. XD Just braught those up originally to make a point about how silly it is that people find chanting echos so disruptive but not aaaaall that other stuff you see in PC-heavy rooms.

If "you" was Alth, go ahead and don't mind the clarification. ^^
adspiciam posthac at certe semper amabo
. semper maesta tua carmina morte canam
qualia sub densis ramorum concinit umbris
. Daulias absumpti fata gemens Ityli
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Re: Market wards

Postby Yemin » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:08 pm

Althasizor was one of the first to bring it up. so I was addressing his issues.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!
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Re: Market wards

Postby Althasizor » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:14 am

The only time I've mentioned hunger code was a joking response to one of Areia's posts, so I'm not sure what I brought up if not that.

As for whether or not it's rude, it's not really up to a single person to decide that, but the community. As you can see from this very thread, it's considered rude by a significant portion of the community; a large enough majority of the playerbase that A). wards exist to block it, and B). the only two people championing their removal also happen to be the only two people I've ever seen who -needed- the wards to remind them to cut it out.
What are you talking about? What, that guy?
That was like that when I got here.
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Re: Market wards

Postby Yemin » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:20 am

I see 3 people who seem to find it rude, thats hardly the majority. Most people don't have strong feeling one way or ther other or haven't seen this thread to comment on since so far there are only some 5 people in total involved here.

Also, I was referring to your dislike for peopleing eating when its a legitimate code spurred action that probably causes more spam than casting and probably had an easier fix or suggestable improvement.

Also, I cast no less now than I ever have, feel free to suggest they put up wards wherever in public my casters Might be.

3 or so people find it distracting now vs the number that used to enough that an admin was originally back in the earlier 2 thousands to put effort and code into it. Fine with me, but at least fix the problem by muting it or something. Its a surgical affair where a knife would hav done the job but a hammer was used instead.

As has been mentioned before, the wards don't actually stop the spam from casting they just replace it with something else. Walking out to cast, then coming back generates 2 lines. Casting a spell generates 2 lines for non casters and younger players. it is a problem that whilst in game affects a minority of people in that it only generates more lines for people playing casters who know spellcraft at the time. And thats iff the person doesn't give some sort of say or smote to say what their doing or where they're going. Which from an IC perspective one should, rather than just walking 200+ feet away in the middle of a conversation.

They're uttelry inaffective at their purpose if their purpose is to cut the number of lines outputted that aren't smotes. This at least isn't a point of opinion, its easily observable.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!
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Re: Market wards

Postby Alitar » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:14 am

Only chiming in because people's silence has been assumed upon. I like the wards. For a number of reasons. I would not want them be ended. It's not just about spam, and for the record I do find it rude when people cast a bunch in the market. Thankfully it's been stopped once again.
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Re: Market wards

Postby Grenwyn » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:20 am

Alitar wrote:Only chiming in because people's silence has been assumed upon. I like the wards. For a number of reasons. I would not want them be ended. It's not just about spam, and for the record I do find it rude when people cast a bunch in the market. Thankfully it's been stopped once again.


I agree.
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Re: Market wards

Postby Aldren » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:52 am

Alitar wrote:Only chiming in because people's silence has been assumed upon. I like the wards. For a number of reasons. I would not want them be ended. It's not just about spam, and for the record I do find it rude when people cast a bunch in the market. Thankfully it's been stopped once again.

I agree. Also: when a forum post is overwhelmed with jabs at one another, while it may provide a certain level of shallow amusement, it turns others such as myself off of posting real opinions on topics. The weight and validity of arguments go out the window when you're absurd about your delivery. Let's stay constructive.
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Re: Market wards

Postby Yemin » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:21 pm

I'm supportive of constructive comments. Is there something you want to elaborate on Aldren, or were you just voicing your agreement?
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!
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Re: Market wards

Postby Lorelie » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:32 pm

So I guess I am going to chime in now. ICly I hate the wards. OCCly I understand why they are in place.

MS used to have the same warning that ZK has, but it was ignored and people continued to spam, and for the record this has never been about casting one spell, it has always been multiple spells that has been the issue.

Wards were put up and there was even a time when Mystra would ban people from casting entirely if they ignored the common courtesy of not spamming people who were trying to RP.

Wards were down when I returned but went back up when there were once again people who were casting multiple spells in the MS without any regard for other people's playing experience. One day I ICly asked one of the people who were doing it if they would please not do it, the reply? Basically it was 'Screw you, I'll do what I want to do.'

Now if you remember answering me in that fashion, you are probably one of the reasons the wards exist as they do now. People were repeatedly asked not to cast multiple spells in MS. A PC who had some IC influence intervened on the behalf of all of us that got that same rather rude answer. The Wards were the results.

IC Actions = IC Consequences.
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Re: Market wards

Postby Gwain » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:45 pm

Agreed. I like the wards. I see it as a way to check my behaviour. I hope that they don't get removed but continue to evolve and change based on the player base and spell system. The old warning system was not bad either but was ineffective at curbing spell spam. One thing I do like that has not been mentioned is the sense of failsafe for the system, I can't tell you what a relief it is to not worry about accidentally casting offensive spells in the ms because the wards are a sort of safeguard.

It's a good alternative to punishing individuals, instead of that we get a preventative measure. I prefer being warned and prevented by code over being punished for inadvertly doing something I should not.

The older system was in place for almost a decade, this new system is a little less than 2 years old. I'd give it a bit more time to be evaluated before arguing against it. Or at least open a poll on the forums to see if there is a huge or just minimal desire for change.
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Re: Market wards

Postby Yemin » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:17 pm

Well, this has been a poll of sorts. and the current results show that there are only really 2 camps on it. Indifference or in favor thus far. So we'll see how things develop given some time.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!
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Re: Market wards

Postby Zethanon » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:24 pm

Pro: No multiple spamming of spellup.
Con: Good luck healing while you bleed out cause heal doesn't work.


Annoying? Sure. But well understood why it's in place. I personally have a tiny buffer and have experienced in the past looking back to a wall'o'spellup casting. Eating and leaving are minor and if the problem was one spell here or there, it probably wouldn't have even been put into play. Alas, there really can be too much of a good thing. In this case, sweet sweet magic.
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