Uncoded non-priests

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Vaemar
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Uncoded non-priests

Post by Vaemar » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:08 pm

After a bit of discussion on the Discord, there was the idea that also uncoded faithfuls who are not priest should be granted access to recall and resurrection.

So here it is, discuss! :P

I am kinda neutral on the matter as it won't prevent me from choosing an uncoded faith, but I realize for others this will matter.

Essentially right now choosing an uncoded faith is already a sacrifice for roleplay (since even priests lose supplicate objects), but having no faith, and thus no recall and resurrection, is even worse. In the sense that the current policy punishes somebody who already chooses a suboptimal option for the sake of roleplay and consistency with the character.

Yet there is also another side of the matter, that is that besides recall and resurrection, these characters have a big risk of abusing getting supplicate objects and accessing temples. Priests have that risk as well, of course, but in their case having a coded faith is required for them to acquire all skills and spells, at least, while with other characters there are the risks but almost none of the necessary benefits. However, abusers could also be punished on a case by case basis, of course, and it is always wrong to assume bad behaviour in advance.

Last but not least, not being faithed excludes one from the favor mechanic. This means, for example there are no penalties for doing actions against the faith (like stealing for a follower of a lawful god) or benefits for actions that are in line with the deity (like healing others for a good deity). Favor conditions roleplay, as I realized with my characters. Sometimes, let's be honest, not having favor is for the better, so for example one is not encouraged to go on a killing and pyromaniac spree, but I also see the loss of the mechanic as potentially not good. For example a good character may not feel the urge to cook corpses that are there anyway.

So, anyway, I have not a dog in this fight, but given there was a bit of discussion here it is for everybody.

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Re: Uncoded non-priests

Post by Yemin » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:32 pm

I'd be in support for noncoded nonpriests getting the same supplicate options as their clergy couterparts.

I'm not entirely supportive of the supplicate system as a whole but thats another thread.

More for the sake of consistency and that it makes sense (to me) in anycase that anyone codedly devout can't do something because of a mechanical class title that doesn't really represent how devout the character is.

Afterall, priest is a job not a class and there is at least one obsurdly devout wizard priest currently active to illustrate the point.
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Re: Uncoded non-priests

Post by Areia » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:35 am

help uncoded deities wrote: * A PC may use supplicate recall and resurrection.

* A PC may not use supplicate object.

* A PC may be blessed or damned, but cannot be promoted.

* A PC may learn domain spells if they are a priest.

* Non-priest PCs will not be inducted into a coded faith.

* A PC should apply good judgment with respect to privileges afforded members
of their parent faith. e.g. do not enter an exclusive part of that faith's
temple if it is inappropriate to do so.
So it seems that non-priests who don't get access to recall or resurrect only do so because they're not inducted into a coded faith; however, I'm almost positive this policy has changed over time. I know of three non-priests off the top of my head who follow uncoded deities and who are in fact coded initiates in a coded faith. So I'd assume they do actually get access to resurrect and recall.
If the assumption is wrong, though, I do agree that I'd like to see them also get access to supplication, not because for any lack in mechanical benefit or anything (I have less admiration for the supplicate system than I do irksomeness, too), but just because there's no IC reason for them not to get it if the PC is as IC devout in his/her actions as a priest or, as sometimes happens, even more so.

But yeah, I kinda feel like this has become different over time.
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Re: Uncoded non-priests

Post by Vaemar » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:27 pm

I pondered over this for a bit, and asked around, and it is my understanding as well that this changed over time, and that there have been non-priest characters belonging to uncoded faiths who have been inducted into coded faiths as initiates.

I believe this is a change for the worse, regardless of the reason, as it penalyzes somebody who definitely didn't need to be penalyzed, since they were already choosing a suboptimal option for the sake of roleplay and consistency with their character or racial background.

On the other hand I firmly believe that who chooses to play something different, as an uncoded faith in this case, should definitely not be penalyzed, as they contribute to make the game richer by adding new perspectives to it. I am frankly not optimistic about seeing in the future many non-priests followers of uncoded deities due to this policy, and I find this quite sad as I fear it will impoverish the game.

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Re: Uncoded non-priests

Post by Areia » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:29 am

Well, to answer your latter point, I myself have RP'd one follower of an uncoded deity, and he is not a priest. As well I have met the ranger of that elven archer god, the bard of Milil, etc., aside from the three I mentioned above. Honestly now that I think of it, I kinda feel like I know of a lot more non-priestly uncoded faithful than I do of priestly ones. So coded benefit or no, I can't say I'm too worried about participation in this RP path declining for really any reason. The sorts of people who join faiths (or attempt to) only for the coded benefits, in my experience, tend to do so far more for the sup items than anything else, and those are not available even to priests of uncoded deities anyway. So all that's left are folks who genuinely enjoy the out-of-the-ordinary RP.

But, forgive me, the earlier bits of your last post lost me, Vaemar.
Vaemar wrote: I pondered over this for a bit, and asked around, and it is my understanding as well that this changed over time, and that there have been non-priest characters belonging to uncoded faiths who have been inducted into coded faiths as initiates.

I believe this is a change for the worse, regardless of the reason, as it penalyzes somebody who definitely didn't need to be penalyzed, since they were already choosing a suboptimal option for the sake of roleplay and consistency with their character or racial background.
To clarify, the shift has been, at least from what I've gathered, from not inducting non-priests into coded faiths to inducting them just like priests would be for their domains, granting sup privoledges (or so I assume) to priests and non-priests alike. Isn't that leveling the field? Still, my assumptions are based only on faith lists that I have seen and whatnot, so I could still be wrong, but.
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Re: Uncoded non-priests

Post by Larethiel » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:06 am

I think that change was quite nice for priests because they eventually got access to the prayers/skills/stuff that coded priests already had. And usually the faith that the priest of an uncoded deity will be sorted into is one closest to the alignment and domains of the uncoded god so that's fair.
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Re: Uncoded non-priests

Post by Vaemar » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:09 am

Areia wrote:So coded benefit or no, I can't say I'm too worried about participation in this RP path declining for really any reason. The sorts of people who join faiths (or attempt to) only for the coded benefits, in my experience, tend to do so far more for the sup items than anything else, and those are not available even to priests of uncoded deities anyway. So all that's left are folks who genuinely enjoy the out-of-the-ordinary RP.
I am worried, on the other hand, because there is a difference between losing only on the supplicate items, and losing on the supplicate items and recall/resurrection. Obviously for a character with a strong motivation this would not be the case, and I think we will still see some non-priestly followers of these deities in the future, but we will see fewer of them, as remaining mechanically unfaithed is something manageable but with some disadvantages which are hard to ignore. Especially when you have coded faiths that are very close to some uncoded ones in their roleplay, like for example Solonor Thelandira, the elven patron of rangers, and Mielikki. If followers of the former were uncommon before, now it would only be naive to expect they won't be even rarer.
To clarify, the shift has been, at least from what I've gathered, from not inducting non-priests into coded faiths to inducting them just like priests would be for their domains, granting sup privoledges (or so I assume) to priests and non-priests alike. Isn't that leveling the field? Still, my assumptions are based only on faith lists that I have seen and whatnot, so I could still be wrong, but.
No, the most recent shift, which gave birth to this thread, seems to have been from inducting to not inducting them into any faith. If you apply, say, for a gnome illusionist follower of Baravar Cloakshadow, after the quest they will receive a renamed faith symbol but their score will have "Deity: Unaligned". In short: right now uncoded non-priests remain mechanically unfaithed.

What you describe is what was (apparently?) the previous policy, which was, in my humble opinion, better than the current one.

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Re: Uncoded non-priests

Post by Harroghty » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:46 am

The policy as noted above (quoted from uncoded deities) is the one we have consistently applied for the last two years. I'm sure that there have been exceptions over the years, but the general rule is that we only induct the priests for the purposes of equipping them with domain spells.

I may have an idea to apply a bandage here and avoid the pitfalls of trying to induct everyone (recall locations don't match, hard to follow up on infractions, etc.) but I need to work on it a little bit.
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Re: Uncoded non-priests

Post by Harroghty » Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:08 pm

There is a new uncoded deity symbol out there. It includes the ability to resurrect and recall for a kismet cost. This not a perfect comparison, but its the most economical and achievable way to provide this service to uncoded deity followers.

I will publish a new HowTo with specifics.
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