Scribing and ba

hasryn
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Scribing and ba

Post by hasryn » Mon Feb 29, 2016 2:13 pm

Scribe Scroll [Item Creation]
Prerequisite
Caster level 1st.

Benefit
You can create a scroll of any spell that you know.
I was thinking that bards being part sorcerer/part priest part rogue etc. That it would fit for them to have scribe. Perhaps brew but scribing would indeed fit them. They have to write spells into a spellbook when they learn them. They are writers, singers, etc... and even from some of the FR novels like the ones about finder wyvernspur a bard become demi god has a whole laboratory much like a normal wizard with scrolls of his own crafting and the like. I doubt it would be unbalancing for them in FK and would be a new facet to explore. Perhaps require them to have a high skill in use magic device before they can learn? Something around Adept or expert perhaps? Brewing would make sense because they could meet the prerequisites in 3.5 edition but for game mechanic sakes I think scribing would be of much better benefit. I thought I'd bring it up for it to be considered.

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Re: Scribing and ba

Post by Yemin » Mon Feb 29, 2016 2:37 pm

I'd be jealous if bards got scribe scroll at level 1 before wizards did.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Scribing and ba

Post by hasryn » Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:01 pm

lol I'd not say they'd get it at lvl 1 it'd be on par with all other casters in game :p and if you went off that wizards and clerics would have it at the same time.

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Re: Scribing and ba

Post by Llanthyr » Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:04 am

Bards should be allowed to scribe. It's very much in line with their rp. There are also hardly any game breaking spells that I know that 3.5e bards have access to.

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Re: Scribing and ba

Post by hasryn » Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:23 am

none at all in fk. Itd be cool to have shadow conjuration and evocation though!

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Re: Scribing and ba

Post by Yemin » Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:34 am

Playing devils advocate here but don't bards as spontaneous casters get more casts per level than the prepped casters like wizard and cleric? If they don't then that should be changed. i always thought the reason spontaneous casters didn't get scribe and brew automatically was because they generally had more casts per day and well, because their spontaneous casters. So there's no confusion, I mean as spontaneous casters you don't really have the challenge of not having a spell ready like a wizard/cleric does.

Why not take an idea from the solist thread and open specific feats up to bard to allow them to take a feat for these skills like in the game since if you want to roleplay the more wizardly bard taught by blackstaff there's no need you shouldn't be able to. At the same time FK has a pretty heavy suggestion that the only ways to be a bard are through the stereotypical performance based arts.

If anything I'd like to see bards get bardsongs back and a few instruments with magical effects beneficial to the party.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Scribing and ba

Post by hasryn » Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:56 pm

Spontaneous casters get less casts per day than a specialized and prepped wizard and a lower selection of spells. That is even sorcerers. Bards are a hybrid of rogue/priest/sorcerers pretty much. So far on my bard it has been going at lvl 15 4/3/2 as opposed to as a wizard has a good bit more at that level. For a sorcerer it would be maybe one spot higher. The trade off is that you get a bit more leeway on how you use your spell slots. But even so to be in lin with 3.5 any one with a proper caster level could learn scribe. It's a feat in table top. I was pointing it out here because it would fit with there rp and any caster who can prep with scrolls or potions has a small stock pile if they've put the time into it for when you go out in groups on grand ventures.

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Re: Scribing and ba

Post by Yemin » Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:58 pm

hasryn wrote:Spontaneous casters get less casts per day than a specialized and prepped wizard and a lower selection of spells. That is even sorcerers. Bards are a hybrid of rogue/priest/sorcerers pretty much. So far on my bard it has been going at lvl 15 4/3/2 as opposed to as a wizard has a good bit more at that level. For a sorcerer it would be maybe one spot higher. The trade off is that you get a bit more leeway on how you use your spell slots. But even so to be in lin with 3.5 any one with a proper caster level could learn scribe. It's a feat in table top. I was pointing it out here because it would fit with there rp and any caster who can prep with scrolls or potions has a small stock pile if they've put the time into it for when you go out in groups on grand ventures.
I don't have the materials for 3.5 but at level 1 in pf a wizard has 1 levle spell if he doesn't specialize whereas a sorc has 3 and that ratio is roughly maintained as they level.

Looking at bard tables in that system they do have less spells per day than a sorc but still slightly more than a wizard all the way up till they hit their own max with level 6 spells.

The major difference between these classes on paper is that bards get a LOT of class features in comparison to either, sorc, wiz or cleric and so if bards are going to see improvement, I'd rather they get those class features than iconic ones from other classes.

I agree it would be fair to open scribe up to a feat granted skill here with some classes getting it automatically, but I disagree that bards should be one of the classes that gain it automatically. Neither should sorcs if / when their implemented

In summary, I think that scribing however suitable for a class's roleplay shouldn't be used as a bandage to make up for that classe slack in areas it should be good at and in my opinion the scroll and potion laidened spellcaster has always been a wizard, Sorcerers are all about bringing down the pain and beign too undisciplined to sit there for hours brewing and bards iconically have brought the music.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Scribing and ba

Post by hasryn » Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:34 pm

If we went strictly with 3.5 wizards and clerics wouldn't get it unless they expended a feat at it. Same with brewing. So it'd fall in line with giving it to a class that does writing/singing/etc and works there arcane side with spontaneous casting but they pick it up through study not just a talent they have. Same with rangers etc..

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Re: Scribing and ba

Post by Yemin » Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:26 pm

hasryn wrote:If we went strictly with 3.5 wizards and clerics wouldn't get it unless they expended a feat at it. Same with brewing. So it'd fall in line with giving it to a class that does writing/singing/etc and works there arcane side with spontaneous casting but they pick it up through study not just a talent they have. Same with rangers etc..
I'm not sure I understand properly... wizards get summon familiar and scribe scroll at levle 1 automatically unles this site is incorrect:
http://alcyius.com/dndtools/classes/wizard/

As for it being appropriate or possible path for Bard's, that much is still a fair point that one shouldn't dispute. However, I tend to look at it like this.

Does a bard even have to be literate to be a bard? FK has made it that way with the pretty cool schooling system for them but I highly doubt the street magicians, travelling performers and such who learn to spell sing from a mentor, perhaps family member who has been part of that troop and the tradition passed down has even really a strong inkling to become an author.

I'm not even sure why FK bards need spellbooks, it might be a code requirement but there's nothing about needing one in the class description.

On the other hand, it isn't possible to be an illiterate wizard. The reason wizards out in the wilds and villages are called hedgemagicians is because their just that. They came upon magic by bumbling together components through haphazard circumstance and to be powerful as a wizard you require academic thinking/ training as well as exact scribing skills to even write down your spells in a spellbook.


In summary, one type of bard can be an academic, or a calligraphy rtist and so has the training to scribe and if they wanted to be able to their free to buy it with a feat point but by no means are all bards this one type so it's not core.
All wizards who hope to learn the all powerful wish spell require stringent academic training and they scribe scrolls as part of scribing a spell into their spellbook. it is a core component.

Hopefully that outlines where i'm coming from in saying that I'd support a feat for bards to get scribe. But as the rogues of the spellcaster world, I don't fele its a core part of their class's persona. Heck, i'd go so far as to say some clerics shouldn't really get it either without a feat. harsh words since clerics get really few feat points but regardless its the case. I Don't really invision druids and some clerics sitting down to scribe a library with oghmanites and those of Deneir the exception.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Scribing and ba

Post by Llanthyr » Fri Mar 11, 2016 12:22 pm

There's FK and there's SRD. Both are different systems. There is also no need to bring down another class to bring another one up, especially a class like the bard which isn't really that strong.

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Re: Scribing and ba

Post by Yemin » Fri Mar 11, 2016 12:49 pm

Llanthyr wrote:There's FK and there's SRD. Both are different systems. There is also no need to bring down another class to bring another one up, especially a class like the bard which isn't really that strong.
there is a common misconception about dnd in general I think that is often the downfall of people seeking to build new classes or improve on old ones. I can be corrected by someone who was there for Original dnd, but as its been told to me by some others. dnd started out as a war game a kin to chess. Each class = piece had its own strengths, weaknesses and uses on the grid like pattern that we still use in today's dnd.

Classes were never really meant to be compared in comparison with each other but in what they brought to the team when fighting NPCs and the major measure of a class's power was measured when in a team working with the others instead of working[ alone or against them.

So I usually find it largely irrelevent if a class is strong or weak in comparison with others. I usually only consider if the class is good at what it was designed for. I.e., A fighter is a frontline martial combatant thats supposed to be able to deal out physical damage and soak up damage. If a copy class was made called Warrior that kinda did the same thing but not really, I'd consider Warrior a weak class because it fails to live up to its primary function not because a cleric could out damage it with divine power, prayer, weapon of energy and magic weapon.

In the same way, bards will not be improved in their primary strength if given scribe / brew automatically. I would rather see them have more bardic abilities that make them bards instead of borrowing from other classes core characteristics.

In this vane I think bringing back the sing ability and seeing more bardsongs easily available would help put bards on the map.

Introducing perform, intimidate and bluff as skills and opening up the social aspect of dnd a bit more here perhaps as well as code for bards to perform in Taverns and such as a way of earning money would also be interesting.

Having minstrel NPCs that copy cat bard songs during money earning excursions to taverns that repeat player's creativity when other players walk in and pay to hear would also be cool.

Things like this is what I think the bard class would benefit from rather than becoming a semi wizard clone. In my view there is no dragging down to bring up because there is no comparing the two. Wizards and bards are very different and borrowing features will end up making playing one or the other kind of samey which usually isn't a good thing in a game that offers multiple classes.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Scribing and ba

Post by Beskytter » Sat Mar 12, 2016 7:30 am

Going back to the main point of the thread, I feel like a bard should be able to app for the skill. I don't know that all bards should have it, but I agree that some bards should because of their RP.

At some point, the options shouldn't be limited simply because there's a book that says they are. The game differs from the books in a lot of ways, so what's another one? Scrolls aren't the most useful items in the game, so it isn't that big of an issue in my eyes to allow another group of PCs to manufacture them with appropriate RP involved.

Brewing is another story for another thread entirely.
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Re: Scribing and ba

Post by Vibius » Sat Mar 12, 2016 12:32 pm

Actually I think that all bards should be able to get it, training it or not that would be their prerogative.

As it has been said in PnP Wizards need to spend a feat for it, and a bard can be as academic as a wizard if they have that inclination, besides that, our merry bards given their current situation could use some love.

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Re: Scribing and ba

Post by hasryn » Sat Mar 12, 2016 1:05 pm

Beskytter wrote:Brewing is another story for another thread entirely.
Right Right mate. Then we could argue non casting rogues could brew if they where alchemists as well. BAhahaha! Naw In PnP any caster with a caster level of 1 could learn brew and or scribe with the appropriate feat.

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Re: Scribing and ba

Post by Yemin » Sat Mar 12, 2016 1:41 pm

Vibius wrote:Actually I think that all bards should be able to get it, training it or not that would be their prerogative.

As it has been said in PnP Wizards need to spend a feat for it, and a bard can be as academic as a wizard if they have that inclination, besides that, our merry bards given their current situation could use some love.
What would a bard use scribe and or brew for?

By this I mean what facets of scribing and or brewing would improve the class past roleplay.

There is 1 rarely known spell on the bard list, the rest are known by almost every arcane spellcaster I meet. It seems a redundant skill for sharing spells among bards.

There are almost no offensive spells to be used directly in combat. And take it from me. Using defensive scrolls midfight is usually a bad idea. My view on this may be skewed but the fact that I consider them common place when I forgo a good 20% or so of the game by default when I choose never to play underdark says something.

Are bards running out of spells when supporting a group? Given that currently these skills are around level 40 across the board and some group ventures last a long time the few times I've been able to convince a bard to come along I've never seen it happen unless they were playing cleric as well and healing. Even then, spell regain usually had the wizard getting up after the bard was ready.

As far as spell slots go, spontaneous spellcasters should be getting more slots than prepared casters. Its an inherant weakness in the system overall instead of any particular class that got fixed when the dnd writers moved and made path finder. Though bards still have less than sorcerers in that game because they had far more class features and their focus wasn't on being an arcane cannon.

As for brew..., well, you tell me.

Scribe + brew help prepped casters have spells they didn't prep as another primary function.

This idea doesn't make sense from a mechanical point of view and honestly not even from a roleplay point of view. When I see more bards roleplay being academics and or brewers / herbalists / I might be inclined to change my opinion. I don't as a matter of reality seee rp 24/7 but saying something is core to a classes roleplay then never seeing anyone actually roleplay it is a little weird.

I've only ever seen singer bard, writer bard, painter bard, dancer bard once, mysterious assassin and or techy bard, Poetry bard,think thats it.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Scribing and ba

Post by Yemin » Sat Mar 12, 2016 1:46 pm

hasryn wrote:
Beskytter wrote:Brewing is another story for another thread entirely.
Right Right mate. Then we could argue non casting rogues could brew if they where alchemists as well. BAhahaha! Naw In PnP any caster with a caster level of 1 could learn brew and or scribe with the appropriate feat.
I'd support opening up to a feat for them. Apping I believe is already possible since well, its not a special power.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Scribing and ba

Post by Vaemar » Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:29 pm

Yemin wrote:What would a bard use scribe and or brew for?
Scribe: make scrolls for others to learn spells, make scrolls for themselves to recite when they are out of spells. For example scrolls of cure critical would certainly be handy to have in a number in their backpacks, as well as some other handy bardic spells.

Brew: potions of invisibility, heroism, fury, cats grace and of course healing potions.

I've got a pair of bardlings but I admit I am not overtly interested in having these skills on my characters, since I find the class to be already satisfying for my expectations, but I would obviously be happy to have new options.

As for feats and consistency, I have understood that some things which in D&d are feats here are managed through skills. Dodge is a notable example of this and I don't see then why scribe and brewing should be any different in this regard.

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Re: Scribing and ba

Post by Llanthyr » Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:54 pm

Brew should be another topic and lets keep it that way.
Actually I think that all bards should be able to get it, training it or not that would be their prerogative.
Well said. No reason to put something down "just because RP" for some.

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Re: Scribing and ba

Post by Areia » Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:38 pm

I'd personally love to see bards get more songs/magical instruments/etc. before opening up these skills to them. The class certainly does need a little help, but I don't see scribing being the best way to go to achieve that. Remember that reciting scrolls in combat grants a pretty hefty penalty, that being that you can't take actions for three or how ever many rounds. Relying heavily on scrolls for that purpose is more harmful than not.

Pretty much everything I've seen regarding the topic in SRD, online discussions, novels, etc. agree that while bards, paladins, and rangers certainly can take the scribe scroll feat, most just do not because it's unnecessary or not entirely sensible for them to do so. So I like the idea of having scribe available through apps to members of these classes who possess sufficient IC backgrounds for it.
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