Feat: Luck of Heroes

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Tadewi
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Feat: Luck of Heroes

Post by Tadewi » Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:38 pm

Since this feat must be taken by level 5, and its limited to Shadowdale and Tangled trees residents only. Is there a way we could either make the trainer in Shadowdale speak elvish as well as common, or add a trainer to Tangled Trees? Many young elves in Tangled trees dont start with a high enough int to train an additional language right away.

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Re: Feat: Luck of Heroes

Post by Birk » Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:07 am

Wouldn't it be better to just give most elven races common by default? Maybe not to grandmaster, but they should start with common learned according to 3.5 rules, anyway.

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Re: Feat: Luck of Heroes

Post by Harroghty » Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:35 pm

I think that's worth discussing (adding common to them). What do people think about that? Elves do, as a rule, automatically begin with Elven and Common
(see pages 14-16 Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3.5E).

Meanwhile, I added a luck of heroes trainer to Tangled Trees.
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Re: Feat: Luck of Heroes

Post by Benorf » Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:48 pm

I know it's contrary to the way 3.5 works, but I actually *really* enjoy having a language barrier sometimes with people. It adds an interesting flair of roleplay, forcing you to pantomime things on occasion. I would say for elves from a city like Tangled Trees... maybe give them expert/master in common rather than grandmaster?
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Re: Feat: Luck of Heroes

Post by Birk » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:18 pm

I think there's nuances to be made.

First off, I think, regardless of intelligence, elves and other nonhumans that start out in a human-dominant hometown should know common fluently. Rolling a moon elf and finding out you can't interact with your newbie shopkeeper isn't much fun, especially when you didn't put enough points in intelligence to learn it from an npc trainer.

On the other hand, it makes more sense for the wild and wood elves in Tangled Trees to be unfamiliar with common, even if FR source material technically makes no such distinction (by this I mean, mechanically adventurers of these races all start out knowing common and elven). The status quo, though, is that unless they stick 4 points into intelligence on character creation, they're locked out of the majority of quests, shops, and so on. This makes them relatively inaccessible races to newbies. That's not necessarily a problem- both races cost kismet, so it's understood that they're trickier races to play. But personally, I don't think inaccessibility for inaccessibility's sake is a good design goal, and I think much of the same feeling of language unfamiliarity could be achieved by giving them a bad understanding of common- starting out, say, at apprentice or journeyman level.
Last edited by Birk on Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Feat: Luck of Heroes

Post by Rhangalas » Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:53 pm

I see no problem with Elves getting Common at creation. Especially Silver/Copper Elves.

I don't think Green Elves should get it though.
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Re: Feat: Luck of Heroes

Post by Casamir » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:25 pm

If we're all still pretending elves have a starting age of around 200, they might as well all have common. I dont see much point in excluding the rarer subraces, they are barely played as it is. Why make it harder on them?
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Re: Feat: Luck of Heroes

Post by Rhangalas » Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:10 am

I was just going by lore. Green Elves are feral recluses that dwell in close-knit tribes that rarely leave the confines of their forests, so the chance of them all knowing common doesn't seem likely. I see them as the elvish version of an orc.
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Re: Feat: Luck of Heroes

Post by Harroghty » Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:21 am

I've posed this to the staff at large for input and decision. Feel free to continue to comment here; you might change someone's mind.
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Re: Feat: Luck of Heroes

Post by Birk » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:36 am

Rhangalas wrote:I was just going by lore. Green Elves are feral recluses that dwell in close-knit tribes that rarely leave the confines of their forests, so the chance of them all knowing common doesn't seem likely. I see them as the elvish version of an orc.
From Elves of Faerun:
Elves of Faerun, page 40 wrote:Wood Elves speak Elven. Those who have interactions with other races generally learn to speak Common, though some still have enough Elven haughtiness left in them that says that others should learn to speak Elven, if they want to associate with Elves.
Lore-wise, most elf races don't have universal knowledge of common in their communities, but it's generally assumed that adventurers come from the ranks of those who do learn the outsider language- hence the bilingual starting rules. FK is extremely restrictive about learning languages in general compared to SRD rules. High intelligence only raises the cap for how many languages you can learn- whereas there are no such restriction in 3.5, instead intelligence earns you free bonus languages from creation, and anyone can spend two skill points on speak language to learn a new language regardless of intelligence score. So even if you were running some homebrew ruleset where elves only start with elven, any fresh character could pop two skill points during creation to learn common anyhow.

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Re: Feat: Luck of Heroes

Post by Thisiana » Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:11 pm

I too actually kinda like the language barrier, however that being said, having to put 4 point in int for a wild elf to learn common just to get by in the game is a bit frustrating at times. If it's going to be added as a bonus language at creation I would recommend a fairly low skill level, maybe inept, novice or amateur to reflect on their reclusive nature.

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Re: Feat: Luck of Heroes

Post by Birk » Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:42 pm

The more I think about it, the more I wonder why language restrictions aren't simply eased up a little across the board. Giving all races 1 slot at int 8, 2 slots at int 10, 3 slots at int 12 and so on, would give a lot more freedom especially in the early stages of play.

This would open up more options for players, put the game closer to SRD mechanics, and let wild/wood elves in particular get by without investing heavily in intelligence. And you'd still be able to forego common if you want to play a hardcore isolationist.

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Re: Feat: Luck of Heroes

Post by Benorf » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:54 pm

In core rules, a starting character starts with a number of bonus languages equal to the int bonus, so wizards would normally start with at least 5 languages known. But I realize that the goal here is that you start at the *very* beginning of your adventuring, as opposed to most level 1 characters technically have had some training, as they start with feats and stuff.

Long story short, I would say that when you start, you could select a number of languages in which would start at apprentice or journeyman.
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Re: Feat: Luck of Heroes

Post by Harroghty » Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:53 pm

The staff discussed this issue and we resolved it by granting every elf a secondary language proficiency in Common (or a drow elf a secondary proficiency in Elven) as outlined in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting for 3.5E. In a nod to some house dissent for wild elves, we have fixed it so that elves from Tangled Trees have a reduced language proficiency in common.

This change should be live soon and it will affect only new elves. Older elves desiring to have this update may apply and it will not count against their language slots available. If you trained Common already and it took a slot then we will not refund that slot for you, but only advance you to Grandmaster if you were not already one.
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Re: Feat: Luck of Heroes

Post by Trillarel » Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:31 pm

What do I need to do to get my two drow girls elven?

I will admit, I'm a little rusty after 0,5 year of not playing...
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Re: Feat: Luck of Heroes

Post by Harroghty » Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:33 pm

As noted above, drow receive Elven instead of Common. You can apply for this to be added.
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Re: Feat: Luck of Heroes

Post by Hrosskell » Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:02 am

Just out of curiosity, are dwarves in line to receive this treatment?
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