Melee attacks can only be single-targeted. There is a LARGE number of spells that offer utility far beyond that of pure damage in which offers 'value' to you, the caster, and your potential grouplings in combat.Yemin wrote:Unless we are going to see a marked increase in the number of spells we can memorize or cantrips no longer have to be memorized and dont' need recharging plus are pumped up in damage melee attacks have a big advantage over every other form of damage. Even were ranged damage on bows working properly.
5 minutes IRL is 1 hour in-game. That's a good while with slinging spells near constantly. I see no issue if you are firing off damaging spells every round and doing damage every round. That's a viable playstyle for a wide array of dungeons, but not every dungeon.Yemin wrote:the reason so many people use the killer, or big bang for least cost spells is as Zorinar says, Even my wizard who's been at the top of his game for years now, sporting his 100 or so spells will run out of offensive spells in about 5 minutes if he wanted to keep up with the damage output of a fighter or cleric meleeing. this isn't an endorsement to keep the spells the way they are. I'm just pointing out that in my experience the statement that casters have enough spell slots is woefully overestimating the situation.
There are power curves and power spikes in DnD. This is to be expected in FK. Different resources to manage - group play and group composition obviously differs from that of solo venturing.Yemin wrote:I'd go so far to say that this very facet of the game goes a logn way to make pure casters whether spell built bards / clerics or wizards much harder to play. I'd estimate that until about level 31 as a wizard, there is just no point in using straight damage spells. You will run out in about 2 minutes then have to spend the next 5 to 10 minutes regaining them.
Level 20 TT fighter w/ 20 CON averages 214 HP. 1d10 HD for 5.5(19)+5(20)+10=214 and change.Yemin wrote:I will also point out, for the sake of completeness that the skill system in terms of damage spells isn't very useful either. A grand mastered or mastered lightning bolt might be able to kill a howling peak goblin, but for a long time it just doesn't do much than soften a single target. As Zorinar said, why does it take 10 or more more lightning bolts at GM to kill a fighter. Something I'd say is a conservative estimate in my experience. A table level 20 fighter with 20 constitution gets 300 Hp right? At this point he will have something like a +10 to his reflex save, 6 base +1 dex +3 from magical item we'll say.
Spell DC is 10 base + spell level + caster mod. In this case, we also have +1 via spell focus.Yemin wrote:A table level 20 wizard with 20 int and only spellfocus evocation, as nobody to my knowledge here has greater spellfocus. He's an evoker so he prob maximizes and I think we're ready for the simulation.
Dc19 on a maxed lightning bolt, 60 damage if fighter fails the save, 30 if he succeeds. this fighter will on average fail a lightning bolt a bit more often than 1 in 3 times
This wizard will kill the fighter in about 8 hits of his lightning bolt. If the fighter just stands there and takes it like a champ of course
10 + 3 + 5 + 1 = 19 DC vs 10 reflex.
Meeting spell DC beats spell DC for 1/2 save. 55% chance of failure for the fighter to make the save for 1/2 damage.
60/30/60/30=180 damage in 4 rounds at range. Another failed saving throw would put him unconscious while a success would put him at death's door, but still a-swinging.
Agreed.Yemin wrote:I'd prefer this not turn into a what if he had this feat or the wizard had that feat, there are too many feats to consider. I was very conservative with both for the purposes of the example which in my experience is roughly correct.
What you have to realize, is that AoE and evocations may be the board-clearing specialization in tabletop, but here in FK there is no way to miss a room full of targets beyond that of them making saving throws. You do not have to manage friendly fire(heh) against allies when they're in melee range of the target. Your ray spells split around allies to strike at the target right behind them. AoE is, in my opinion, scaled well into FK.Yemin wrote:Now against NPCs:
Goblins usually have 5 hp or thereabouts and have a ref save not worth even thinking about, a level 5 caster with lightning bolt can fry them everytime since the lowest roll at that level is 5D6
Now, there are a lot of NPCs here that are stronger or weaker than their table counterparts. Thats actually a good thing, adds variety which I like. But for the purposes of explaining my point. You see that the area spells that are meant to be able to handle large swathes of enemies as the artilary unit in a military board game does, can no longer do so. Evocation is practically a support and debuff school now, it softens enemies a little bit so the fighter can one round the enemy with his 4 hits instead of needing to take 2 rounds. Illusion, conjuration and transmutation have become the artillary school which is odd, but it is what it is.
Conjuration does have a number of ranged AoE and single-target spells, but no conjurer may cast an evocation. Transmutation has one AoE spell in the form of 'earth reaver', but lacks any other ranged options while being barred from abjuration and necromancy. Illusion holds two save-or-die spells, both ranged while one is single-target and the other AoE. Illusion contains no true 'damaging' spells and is barred access to necromancy. Evocation contains one spell for each level above 2nd that is AoE, while barred from enchantment and conjuration. Artillery is exactly how I would describe the evocation sphere in TT and FK.
I do want to highlight a piece in the quote where you mention enabling a fighter to finish off an enemy in one round instead of two. THAT. That right there is value embodied. And if you have 4 other enemies within the health range that your partied fighter can combo down in one round? You've done your job, now let the 2-handed, or otherwise, DPR fighter do his.
Of course it's not normal. You have one casting class on FK that benefits more than anyone else for having a high INT, though. Think about that. One out of five. Better yet, wizards have the largest selection of die-rolling damaging spells to get the most use out of it.Yemin wrote:And of course in my experience it isn't normal to GM a spell, I still have no GM spells. The activity of grinding skills is too repetetive for me but I understand there are those who enjoy it? Though its hard to fathem how for me.
Melee PCs, because that's what we're talking about, right? Have only two resources to manage - health and stamina. Casters manage both with the addition, unsurprisingly, of mana/magic. The damage of melee-focused PCs has not deviated from that of SRD. They get into the action right away because distance is taken very literal here on FK. Anything in the room you are in is within your distance to move and swing on. Wizards can, and have, taken advantage of this with ranged spells and the enlarge spell feat to great effect. You're the wizard, be intelligent and get the most value out of your spell.Yemin wrote:The current HP level far favors melee. The point at which we would get enough memorized spells to balance out would be too many an may cause other problems though.
I would be disappointed in my DM if he were to send 15 gobos in a cluster anywhere, because that's the only "one stroke" way to wipe the board of the many, albeit, small pronged threats. You would be lucky to get just over half that number of goblins in the 20ft radius of a fireball, your one and only 3rd level spell, but that's your role in the party. One action/spell that gives the best value and the best avenue to success.Yemin wrote:In the end, this isn't really about how much damage a spell does. The numbers are just the packaging. One school of magic or a category of spells were originally calculated to have defined and sure effects to the original game. A lightning bolt will always reduce a stock goblin to 0. thus the DM can feel free to throw 15 goblins at a party of levle 5 characters plus a big bad, and some other things and know that in one stroke the wizard could if he/she is is so inclined, decimate the field. To the players it looks cool and feels satisfying.
You can only get a fraction of this effect with evocation damage spells if you GM each and every single one. And even then, well. As explained above they tend to still fall a little flat.
the HP increase changes the entire planescape in dealing damage with spells. Damage is just the pretty packaging, offensive damage spells are supposed to be a tool to use to remove some kinds of enemies off the board and leave other kinds still able to fight via the mechanic of lower or high HP.
You can still draw a worthy number of enemies in FK from surrounding rooms if you are brave and calculating enough. No grandmastery required, I promise you that. From my experience, 'lighting bolt' on FK hits harder than a 10d6 roll. I'm perfectly fine with that and I would even suggest to allow other single-target spells be likewise tweaked if they are not already.