Legitimacy of training Animate Dead

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Kinal
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Legitimacy of training Animate Dead

Post by Kinal » Fri Mar 18, 2016 6:51 pm

Hey friends.

So I wanted to start focusing on training Animate Dead, but I'm left wondering the code-wise implications and IC repercussions. Casting Animate Dead frequently leaves an undead footprint of many, many undead mobs. Not that I would, but for example, a PC using the Howling Peaks as a training ground for the spell would completely ruin the area, leaving low-level PCs unable to combat the growing ranks of undead goblins.

It's hard to ask this question without flirting with the lines of IC/OOC information sharing, but
I feel like I'm left assuming (sadly) that Animate Dead, while nearly endless in it's potential power, should be left alone as a flavor-only spell. I would prefer this not be the case, but in an effort to preserve the integrity of the game, will concede to it.

Thoughts?
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Re: Legitimacy of training Animate Dead

Post by Vaemar » Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:00 pm

Order the undead mob to destroy each other after raising?

Or even better, destroy them yourself if they can't destroy each other. So you get to practise fireball too. :P
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Re: Legitimacy of training Animate Dead

Post by Kinal » Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:03 pm

This train of thought crossed my mind, and I truly see no IC reason why creating a bunch of undead mobs, and then destroying them wouldn't be feasible, but I wonder if this flirts with the line of code-abuse?

Please say no :P
Last edited by Kinal on Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Legitimacy of training Animate Dead

Post by Yemin » Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:00 pm

I'm not sure I understand.

Which part would be code abuse?
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!
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Re: Legitimacy of training Animate Dead

Post by Kinal » Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:09 pm

I feel like creating a bunch of mobs, then using them to train other spells, then creating more, etc. could be abusing code. To create many mobs, and subsequently use them for training other spells might be breeching the helpfiles for the spell. The helpfile on Animate Dead warns against using the spell to farm areas in any nature, I guess my concern is wondering what the guidelines are to the guideline.

This could just be part of my overtly cautious demeanor IRL.
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Re: Legitimacy of training Animate Dead

Post by Yemin » Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:56 pm

Could you be more specific? I don't see a difference between training a spell with or without mobs. The majority of them don't require NPCs to hit.

As for guidelines. The only ones that apply OOCly as faras I can remember are the same ones surrounding monster summon. don't leave an NPC unattended in an area where it is far above the level of the native NPCs. If possible, don't summon them there at all in the first place.

I believe animated template goblins are only a little stronger than the tougher mobs in howling peak. Not counting the Dr which is among the easiest to bypass in the game. So easy, people do it without ever noticing sometimes.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!
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Re: Legitimacy of training Animate Dead

Post by Areia » Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:03 pm

Speaking only from experience with one of my PCs, as the rest would never use this spell, the reward feels not really worth the effort it takes to train it very high. The zombies just seem too weak to justify overuse of the components and spell slots, though I do find it makes for a very nice add to the PC's RP.

Back to the original question, though, every time I've ever used it, I've ended up just destroying the minions myself when I was done. I can't think why anyone would have a problem with someone creating a zombie and then destroying it to make room for more. Another thing I've observed, too, mostly in ZK, is necros taking corpses into an appropriate place within the city and doing their insane undeath experiments there. This way they'd be much less likely to get in the way of lower level PCs and such. These are just my own personal experiences and could very well be mistaken, however.

Also, PSA to all necros, nondetection is your friend! :P
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Re: Legitimacy of training Animate Dead

Post by Yemin » Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:09 pm

Areia wrote: Also, PSA to all necros, nondetection is your friend! :P
Sorry, you can't cast it on the abominations you create. Don't feardeath, fear my scythe.

As a note, I always thought the point of making zombies shared the same function as tableside, Make lots and lots and use as a horde to buff between yourself and whatever you're fighting. Like a fleshy mirror image.

If it can't do this then it should be looked at.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!
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Re: Legitimacy of training Animate Dead

Post by Kinal » Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:12 pm

Yemin wrote:Could you be more specific? I don't see a difference between training a spell with or without mobs. The majority of them don't require NPCs to hit.

I guess my hangup is essentially when playing actual tabletop, or reading an FR-set novel, animating a corpse is no easy task. Using it a bunch of times with the attempt of gaining skill level seems difficult to justify, as if it shouldn't be a third level spell.

As I said before though, if everyone agrees that the aforementioned methods of training it line up just fine, I'll ignore my hang-ups. Honestly, I would love to be wrong. :P
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Re: Legitimacy of training Animate Dead

Post by Yemin » Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:31 pm

It's always been a third level spell for most clerics and a fourth level spell for wizard classes in 3.5 though.

Are you referring to some other facet of the spell?

As for novels. there are two possibilities.
1. The writer wanted to make it dramatic so he or she played up the difficulty or description of casting the spell.

2. they were actually casting create undead in the novel, which is a different spell entirely and yes, far more difficult.

Animate dead is the quick an nasty, grab as much necromantic energy as you can to bind slivers of souls together with a black onyx to focus the energy through. Create undead is the one where you actually have to go out and fetch body parts to make different kinds of powerful undead all while meeting some vague and experimental criteria at the casting itself. As a note, create undead is cleric only, unless you use feats in the tableside game to grab it, or multiclass into something like dread necromancer I believe.

Tableside, Animate lesser, is even a third level spell for wizard / sorcs so if we're following the rankings of what level of caster should be able to raise the dead. A wizard at level 5, that is to say, a wizard barely out of apprenticeship can raise a zombie lickidy split. its as easy as flame arrow.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!
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Re: Legitimacy of training Animate Dead

Post by Kinal » Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:52 pm

Based on everyone's responses, I'm going to assume that I'm just way overthinking it, as usual. :P

Thanks for the wealth of knowledge, Yemin!
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Re: Legitimacy of training Animate Dead

Post by Yemin » Sat Mar 19, 2016 1:24 am

Its good to think about these things though. Its how you get rewarded for good rp by people like me not to mention your own enjoyment when your willing to push and explore a little.

Unfortunately, the FR magical mechanics are intentionally left vague for two reasons that I can fathem.
1. They want to encourage DMs to fill in the gap
2. More importantly, they want to avoid coming up with an intricate system only for it to get criticised and picked at as most eventually are. And on this point they've half failed since I criticise it plenty.

Specific spells are easy enough to come up with semi explanations for but I have consistantly failed to look at the whole system and come up with an explanation that would make sense to someone living in Feyrun. Everything only seems to make sense if you look at it from a game design point of view. Kind of.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!
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Re: Legitimacy of training Animate Dead

Post by Gwain » Sat Mar 19, 2016 3:34 am

What is the rush to train up animate dead? My advice would be to train it as much as possible at a trainer then use it sparingly. One of the worst things I ever saw was a player character going through an area and killing all the mobiles and raising them up as zombies, it made the leveling area twice as difficult and created huge amounts of battlespam because the original mobiles reloaded after a while. I would say that if you plan on leveling an area with undead, you should be required to destroy them afterwards or march them out. Spamming otherwise in one or two areas seems abusive to me.

Also with the 10000+ new rooms of wilderness and wilderness mobiles, why can't those be used instead of everyday goblins? Lots of nasty new things out there that can wander the map at large.
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Re: Legitimacy of training Animate Dead

Post by Yemin » Sat Mar 19, 2016 8:28 am

Has spam got you down

MuDing? is just too much nowadays with those zombie hordes all over the place?

Well, Now acquisitions unlimited has your back, with our new and never before SEEN, Blind and Hear set. Includes:
blunt wooden spoon.
1 ever improving soundpack.

Get yours.... today. iiiits great... great.. great .. great!

I would love seeing a horde of zombie cows I won't lie. Or zombie prary fowls.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!
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Re: Legitimacy of training Animate Dead

Post by Aishe » Sat Mar 19, 2016 4:51 pm

Yemin wrote:I would love seeing a horde of zombie cows I won't lie. Or zombie prary fowls.
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Re: Legitimacy of training Animate Dead

Post by Daerin » Sat Mar 19, 2016 5:37 pm

My days of animating fowl and barnyard creatures are behind me, thank you very much.

On a more constructive note, I think that animating a ton of zombies in the world then setting them loose to wreak untold havoc- Sounds pretty fun, actually. Zombie prarie fowl sound hilarious. A zombie cow might actually be terrifying!

IMHO, don't spam a newbie area with zombies. Rather, hit the world map, animate some bandits, bears, etc, and let 'em run wild. That way, there's no issues with newbie characters getting overrun with battlespam and out of place undead. In fact, the undead minions marching across the land could be the impetuous for some awesome RP.

Just my 2 cp!
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Re: Legitimacy of training Animate Dead

Post by Brelc » Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:10 am

**Brelc's voice**

There is Legitimacy in learning and mastering corpse animation and reanimation as a whole. He watches and approves. Take note to keep our art hidden or be prepared to face the prejudices of fools.

Positioning is key keep your creations close and between you and your enemy. Should a corpse whisper ill doings to you bring it down, there is always more to be had.

Sleep only in the light of a flickering black candle, and walk in the glory of the Dark Sun. Spread His gift of animation accordingly.

******
Animate Dead has IC consequences use non detect or other means to remain hidden unless you are prepared to engage in fierce often times Deadly rp. XD

With cleaver use of aliases animate dead is quite powerful in early levels for wizards especially. Improves solo leveling in my opinion.

Should be used with responsibility if you intend to spam mindlessly clean up your mess.

I have seen quite a few times where corpse play brings the best RP from both evil and good sides. It gets the blood flowing!

P.S. Hope FK is going great I miss the game and community a great deal

Necromancer out!!!
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