Rogues' woes: we need help

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Rogues' woes: we need help

Post by Parsley » Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:06 pm

Hello.

I would like to express my concern about what I believe the rogue situation, in all honesty, I think that playing a Bard or a Thief in FK is playing on very hard mode.

Their unique talents; spellcasting & singing for bards, lockpicking & detrap & sneak attack for thieves doesn't make up for all their weaknesses.

Is there anything we can do to improve their playing experience?

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Re: Rogues' woes: we need help

Post by Yemin » Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:14 pm

rogues, above all other of the core classes are the most party dependant in the table top and this shows here. I honestly don't think there is a way to make them MORE rogue without messing up the class or game balance.

I believe from what I've read in more recent threads and threads back in 2009, the most enjoyment from the class is being a sneaky whatsit and the rp that comes with it.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Rogues' woes: we need help

Post by Parsley » Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:47 pm

Yes, they are very party dependent in tabletop, but so they can bring to the table something to make their weight worth.

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Re: Rogues' woes: we need help

Post by Harroghty » Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:52 pm

What impact does the availability of existing skills and feats have now?
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Re: Rogues' woes: we need help

Post by Parsley » Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:29 pm

They help but their signature skills & spells aren't critical, weak in some cases. With the exception of the odd locked door it is almost always better having any other class than a rogue.

It takes a lot of effort to level them and the rewards of doing it are little.

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Re: Rogues' woes: we need help

Post by Ungtar » Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:01 pm

Parsley wrote: It takes a lot of effort to level them and the rewards of doing it are little.
What sort of reward were you looking for? :)

Thieves and warriors are sort of those classes that have to bring their own metagame to the table. The character itself better be fun to roleplay or you're going to get bored with it.

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Re: Rogues' woes: we need help

Post by Terageld » Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:04 pm

Should we just implement the simple solution: damage increase? I feel like rogues should get massive damage bonuses when attacking a distracted enemy. This will make them super valuable in groups.
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Re: Rogues' woes: we need help

Post by Yemin » Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:32 pm

they already do an insane amount of damage at higher PC and skill levels. it just takes effort to get them there.
I say this without actually playing one, but If supported properly by the party or ahem... wizard, I've seen a rogue take down something in 3 rounds that the wizard couldn't in 12

There are some things that just don't translate well to a MUD because of the rather low playership and the wide array of paths available. Solo play with occure where again... rogues will suffer terribly.

I think the game would benefit from 3 archetypes of rogue instead of the current 2. Bard, thief and assassin.

One of the problems that definitely needs fixing is how many stats rogues depend on and by streamlining the process of what you want to be good at. it will help give new players to the class a less overwhelmed feeling of... wait what? I have a cha dependant skill, some wis and int, a bunch of dex ones and poor HD so I need con but wait, I can't actually keep at light load in light armour unless I have a 13 or 14 str?

It would look something like:
Bards = mostly Cha, followed by dex, int con then str
Thieves = Dex, int wis con then str
Assassin = Str/dex, con, int wis, depending how strength or dex based you wanted to make it.

Like I say, this is only one of the issues, but it is the most upfront one that keeps me from playing the class and really enjoying it.

Could someone enlighten me on what alchemical items and tools apart from lockpicks the rogue has access to in the game? Apart from poison I don't really see much and if this is as lacking as I've seen, its definitely a gap that needs filling. Smoke pellets / smoke bombs and the like come to mind as one of the most important tools of the trade.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Rogues' woes: we need help

Post by Aishe » Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:50 pm

Yemin wrote:One of the problems that definitely needs fixing is how many stats rogues depend on and by streamlining the process of what you want to be good at. it will help give new players to the class a less overwhelmed feeling of... wait what? I have a cha dependant skill, some wis and int, a bunch of dex ones and poor HD so I need con but wait, I can't actually keep at light load in light armour unless I have a 13 or 14 str?
This sounds mighty familiar to my own struggles with the rogue class, though things seemed to even out when I decided to start focusing in on certain stats with the understanding that I might catch up on the others later. Trickiest stat to gauge the value of: Wisdom
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Re: Rogues' woes: we need help

Post by Aysa » Thu Oct 01, 2015 12:16 am

Sneak attack damage, which inflicts attribute damage to strength which lasts 24 in game hours? You will not get sympathy from me. Name any other class that can inflict that kind of last damaging? No, death does not count with resurrection, raise dead, and supplicate resurrection being in play.

Sorry for not being a team player on this one, but try being a wizard and going solo at low levels. It's VERY difficult. So, really, I need a more compelling argument than "It's hard to level with little reward". Hell, I've opted to specialize in the bow... knowing that magic bows are a unicorn here, and knowing that there are no magic arrows for the composite bow, and knowing that I don't get STR bonuses even though owning and using a composite bow. I've opted in the bow because that's what elves do.

I'll get off my soapbox now

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Re: Rogues' woes: we need help

Post by Ungtar » Thu Oct 01, 2015 12:43 am

I'll also point out that you might have better luck finding people to go adventuring with if you hung out where adventurers go.

You can literally ride on someone else's coat tails right up to level 50 if you want.

Groups get a bonus to xp. That means a person is going to benefit from taking you along with them even if you just stand there and make dubstep noises the whole time.

So pack up your banjo and go park in front of some level appropriate zone for you and meet some adventurers.

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Re: Rogues' woes: we need help

Post by Althasizor » Thu Oct 01, 2015 12:44 am

Yemin wrote:they already do an insane amount of damage at higher PC and skill levels. it just takes effort to get them there.
I say this without actually playing one, but If supported properly by the party or ahem... wizard, I've seen a rogue take down something in 3 rounds that the wizard couldn't in 12
This is the case in tabletop, but in FK, they really can't. Rogues at the moment only get one sneak attack in a round, capped at 10d6 damage. That -sounds- like a lot, but most high level wizard spells are more in the range of 20d6 or, more popular, insta-death. Warriors don't have that sort of damage output, but they have loads more AC and HP, and end up dealing more damage in the long run. Rogues deal very little damage, and are very squishy.

That said, my main character at the moment is a rogue, and I enjoy him immensely through RP. Potions and the like can cover a lot of the class' coded weaknesses. The only real trouble is that their reflex save is half of what it's meant to be, leaving them much slower and easily hit than one might suspect for a class focused around evading things.
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That was like that when I got here.

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Re: Rogues' woes: we need help

Post by Nearraba » Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:24 am

Aysa wrote:Sneak attack damage, which inflicts attribute damage to strength which lasts 24 in game hours? You will not get sympathy from me. Name any other class that can inflict that kind of last damaging? No, death does not count with resurrection, raise dead, and supplicate resurrection being in play.
That only has to do with the thieves guild. Not Rogues in general nor Bards. :) Let's keep constructive with criticism. Ungtar brings up a few good ideas.

My take on it; Theives, I've seen many of them well done over the years in both role play & code. It may take some time to figure out what works & does not, but as of now, there are ways with the right selected feats & skills.

Bards. They could really use a code update to fix the "sing" skill. As of now that I know, it simply has only one to two working song that lasts very minimally after doing a quest to gain them. That is one thing in my opinion that could bring greater reward to their class.
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Re: Rogues' woes: we need help

Post by Yemin » Thu Oct 01, 2015 3:19 am

Althasizor wrote:
Yemin wrote:they already do an insane amount of damage at higher PC and skill levels. it just takes effort to get them there.
I say this without actually playing one, but If supported properly by the party or ahem... wizard, I've seen a rogue take down something in 3 rounds that the wizard couldn't in 12
This is the case in tabletop, but in FK, they really can't. Rogues at the moment only get one sneak attack in a round, capped at 10d6 damage. That -sounds- like a lot, but most high level wizard spells are more in the range of 20d6 or, more popular, insta-death. Warriors don't have that sort of damage output, but they have loads more AC and HP, and end up dealing more damage in the long run. Rogues deal very little damage, and are very squishy.

That said, my main character at the moment is a rogue, and I enjoy him immensely through RP. Potions and the like can cover a lot of the class' coded weaknesses. The only real trouble is that their reflex save is half of what it's meant to be, leaving them much slower and easily hit than one might suspect for a class focused around evading things.
One per round? Truly? I've seen rogues get a sneak attack on every single attack per round if the conditions apply
At least, the sneak attack echo fired for every attack I saw.
I agree the reflex should be bumped up. and though I understand the comparison made there with wizards and leveling... two broken wrongs don't make a fixed right and all that.

I haven't seen anyone enlighten as to the tools of the trade yet... so going on the knowledge however limited that the only tools rogues get to use. are poison and lockpicks, I think, smoke bombs that works like glitter dust to cover a party's retreat.

Perhaps not exactly that, but yeah.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Rogues' woes: we need help

Post by Hrosskell » Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:30 am

Rogues should get their full round of sneak attacks; if ever they get one, they should get them all, with both weapons. Other than that--and the reflex issue--I'm not convinced they're broken.

Feats/spells for enabling precision damage against undead/constructs/oozes/plants would be a great quality of life step. (Gravestrike, Enable Critical, etc.) Thieves are otherwise useless against these types of creatures (which is intended, but specializing to deal with them instead of, say, adding general defensive/utility capabilities is what feats are for--also intended).

*Edited to acknowledge the Reflex issue.
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Re: Rogues' woes: we need help

Post by Parsley » Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:50 am

Sorry to drop the bomb and leave but it was late in old Europe, also now posting from the phone.

So... Thieves could use fixed saves, confirmation that sneak attack can trigger for all attacks (including offhand), something about the load. I would also add that they need something to disengage of monsters (hide in a fight, a tumble skill that works like rescue but inverted)

Bards ; something about their load, reworked song system.

Low priority: Figuring what to do with poison weapon & Use magic device. Anyone has been able to use these skills as part of standard gameplay consistently?

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Re: Rogues' woes: we need help

Post by Vaemar » Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:33 am

Yep, reflex save is the main problem I see in the thief class.

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Re: Rogues' woes: we need help

Post by Isaldur » Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:39 pm

Won't comment on Bardic Music as it has been mentioned.

A Bardic Knowledge skill would also be another reason to seek bards to round out a party, but would also require builders to incorporate another type of knowledge/skill check into areas built for it to be worthwhile.
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Re: Rogues' woes: we need help

Post by Yemin » Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:22 pm

Isaldur wrote:Won't comment on Bardic Music as it has been mentioned.

A Bardic Knowledge skill would also be another reason to seek bards to round out a party, but would also require builders to incorporate another type of knowledge/skill check into areas built for it to be worthwhile.
If we're talking about bards, here's a bunch of Ideas that seem pretty straight forward to me. All which require a formal Perform skill linked to perform / sing ability to control number of times used. Some like the countersong, and dirge should probably have a long or indefinate duration per charge used. Since lets face it. The party may spend ages ina dungeon and having alot of quasi spell like abilities won't go far otherwise. Whereas some like the Soothing song and frightening tune are a one shot ability, or perhaps redundant if bards can already cast those spells.

Countersong (Su): At 1st level, a bard learns to counter magic effects that depend on sound (but not spells that have verbal components). Each round of the countersong he makes a Perform (keyboard, percussion, wind, string, or sing) skill check. Any creature within 30 feet of the bard (including the bard himself) that is affected by a sonic or language-dependent magical attack may use the bard's Perform check result in place of its saving throw if, after the saving throw is rolled, the Perform check result proves to be higher. If a creature within range of the countersong is already under the effect of a noninstantaneous sonic or language-dependent magical attack, it gains another saving throw against the effect each round it hears the countersong, but it must use the bard's Perform skill check result for the save. Countersong does not work on effects that don't allow saves. Countersong relies on audible components.
Translation: Perform / sing countersong, All party members gain a bonus to their will save against enchantment spells.

Distraction (Su): At 1st level, a bard can use his performance to counter magic effects that depend on sight. Each round of the distraction, he makes a Perform (act, comedy, dance, or oratory) skill check. Any creature within 30 feet of the bard (including the bard himself) that is affected by an illusion (pattern) or illusion (figment) magical attack may use the bard's Perform check result in place of its saving throw if, after the saving throw is rolled, the Perform skill check proves to be higher. If a creature within range of the distraction is already under the effect of a noninstantaneous illusion (pattern) or illusion (figment) magical attack, it gains another saving throw against the effect each round it sees the distraction, but it must use the bard's Perform skill check result for the save. Distraction does not work on effects that don't allow saves. Distraction relies on visual components.
Translation: Perform / sing distraction all party members gain a bonus against illusions, or combine distraction and countersong for a general will save bonus.

Fascinate (Su): At 1st level, a bard can use his performance to cause one or more creatures to become fascinated with him. Each creature to be fascinated must be within 90 feet, able to see and hear the bard, and capable of paying attention to him. The bard must also be able to see the creatures affected. The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents this ability from working. For every three levels the bard has attained beyond 1st, he can target one additional creature with this ability.
Each creature within range receives a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the bard's level + the bard's Cha modifier) to negate the effect. If a creature's saving throw succeeds, the bard cannot attempt to fascinate that creature again for 24 hours. If its saving throw fails, the creature sits quietly and observes the performance for as long as the bard continues to maintain it. While fascinated, a target takes a –4 penalty on all skill checks made as reactions, such as Perception checks. Any potential threat to the target allows the target to make a new saving throw against the effect. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect.
Fascinate is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting ability. Fascinate relies on audible and visual components in order to
Translation: Will save on living foes that dazes them for a short time. The party can all gain a surprise round from attacking them / it afterwards.

Inspire Competence (Su): A bard of 3rd level or higher can use his performance to help an ally succeed at a task. That ally must be within 30 feet and be able to hear the bard. The ally gets a +2 competence bonus on skill checks with a particular skill as long as she continues to hear the bard's performance. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels the bard has attained beyond 3rd (+3 at 7th, +4 at 11th, +5 at 15th, and +6 at 19th). Certain uses of this ability are infeasible, such as Stealth, and may be disallowed at the GM's discretion. A bard can't inspire competence in himself. Inspire competence relies on audible components.
Translation: perform / sing competence: party members gain a bonus to their skills whilst grouped.

Suggestion (Sp): A bard of 6th level or higher can use his performance to make a suggestion (as per the spell) to a creature he has already fascinated (see above). Using this ability does not disrupt the fascinate effect, but it does require a standard action to activate (in addition to the free action to continue the fascinate effect). A bard can use this ability more than once against an individual creature during an individual performance.
Making a suggestion does not count against a bard's daily use of bardic performance. A Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 the bard's level + the bard's Cha modifier) negates the effect. This ability affects only a single creature. Suggestion is an enchantment (compulsion), mind affecting, language-dependent ability and relies on audible components.
Translation: Suggest <target> after perform / sing fascinate, skill check against creature's will every time but works as charm monster.

Dirge of Doom (Su): A bard of 8th level or higher can use his performance to foster a sense of growing dread in his enemies, causing them to become shaken. To be affected, an enemy must be within 30 feet and able to see and hear the bard's performance. The effect persists for as long as the enemy is within 30 feet and the bard continues his performance. This performance cannot cause a creature to become frightened or panicked, even if the targets are already shaken from another effect. Dirge of doom is a mind-affecting fear effect, and it relies on audible and visual components.
Translation: perform / sing dirge. Constant debuff to attacks rolls, dmg rolls and saves of foes, Like sorrow or wave of grief.

Soothing Performance (Su): A bard of 12th level or higher can use his performance to create an effect equivalent to a mass cure serious wounds, using the bard's level as the caster level. In addition, this performance removes the fatigued, sickened, and shaken conditions from all those affected. Using this ability requires 4 rounds of continuous performance, and the targets must be able to see and hear the bard throughout the performance. Soothing performance affects all targets that remain within 30 feet throughout the performance. Soothing performance relies on audible and visual components.
Translation: Can only be sung / performed out of combat, has stated effects.

Frightening Tune (Sp): A bard of 14th level or higher can use his performance to cause fear in his enemies. To be affected, an enemy must be able to hear the bard perform and be within 30 feet. Each enemy within range receives a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the bard's level + the bard's Cha modifier) to negate the effect. If the save succeeds, the creature is immune to this ability for 24 hours. If the save fails, the target becomes frightened and flees for as long as the target can hear the bard's performance. Frightening tune relies on audible components.
As the spell fear.

Taken mostly from:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard

Bards should have a but load of abilities... and honestly I've never seen any of them used in game so far. Personally I prefer the path finder version I posted above to the 3.5 but to each their own.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Rogues' woes: we need help

Post by Zorinar » Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:49 am

1) I think that there should be an option in combat mode for the rogue, that allows the party to see a hiding rogue that is in group with them. (give them +100 to see in-party rogues hiding)

-This allows rogues to communicate using thieves cant while hidden, with each other. It allows the party to know if the rogue is keeping up with them, as well. Realistically, the party should know where their rogue is, they are watching him hide.

2) More Magical light armor needs to be added for rogues.

3) Poison weapon should have a variety of effects, meaning different kinds of poisons that affect different stats.

4) Riposte Needs to be fixed and actually start working.

5) The balance of GM spot vs GM hide should be fixed.

6) The reflex save needs to be fixed.

7) If we are going by 3.5, sneak attack should be hitting every attack in the round, not just once a round. (But that will seriously mess with balance.)

8) More traps!

9) More Locked Doors!

10) Climb should actually work, as it is now with my Adept climb I still need a fly potion for almost everything that I need climb for.

I think 10 is good for now.

Thanks!
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