Track Skill(?)

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Re: Track Skill(?)

Post by Karah » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:24 am

exactly! lets fix the Druids before we go splitting their playerbase.
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Re: Track Skill(?)

Post by Brar » Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:44 am

Selveem wrote:Druid is low population (as a whole)
Have you really seen the who list recently?? We are swarmed by feet stinkers!! (yeah druids' feet stinks, that's a known thing).

On the topic at hand, I think it falls down to the skill question.

I think we should take Druid as a class and not three different classes and all of them should have the same skill/spell/weapon list.

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Re: Track Skill(?)

Post by Rhytania » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:56 pm

Brar wrote:
Selveem wrote:Druid is low population (as a whole)
I think we should take Druid as a class and not three different classes and all of them should have the same skill/spell/weapon list.
Nononono we use to be that way a while back, but since we have been campaigning with the old administration, we where able to see some changes. Here are the references:

viewtopic.php?f=73&t=6477&p=41349&hilit=+druid#p41349

viewtopic.php?f=73&t=5663&hilit=+druid

viewtopic.php?f=73&t=4864&hilit=+druid

viewtopic.php?f=73&t=1496&hilit=+druid

viewtopic.php?f=73&t=1712&hilit=+druid

viewtopic.php?f=73&t=717&hilit=+druid

All of these in a nutshell can be looked at as a living document that goes back to early days of the Druid/Cleric class that we all fought for. To summarize in almost all of these threads would be that there are enough differences between the Druids we have (Mielikki/Chauntea/Malar) that to combine us now would be, not only swimming upstream on canon, but also counterproductive.
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Re: Track Skill(?)

Post by Brar » Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:28 pm

What you are quoting are difference in roleplay, yet a druid is a druid, like a fighter is a fighter and a ranger is a ranger and a rogue is a rogue and a bard is a bard...

After that, the different religions means different roleplays, but choosing a gods should not change your skills or spells.

Having the same class doesn't mean having the same RP.

Technically speaking, a cleric of Tyr and a cleric of Cyric have the same class, hence the same skills and the same spells (the only difference for cleric are the domain spells which are non existant for druids).

So I think that Druids should be druids like clerics should be clerics (which is not the case weapon-wise right now but that's another topic) and like paladin are paladin, whatever the alignment or gods they follow.

Edit to add: That's the change that happened since 3rd ed, druids can be of any alignment that contains neutral in its name so to resume: neutral good, lawful neutral, true neutral, chaotic neutral, neutral evil.

But all that the alignment deity change is the roleplay part of the things, not the skill/spell sets.

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Re: Track Skill(?)

Post by Rhytania » Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:25 pm

I know it was a lot to sift through. The RP aspect was one thing. The reason that we are no longer loaded with the same skill sets is becuase we fought to get ours separated from before. That was my intent to show, the years it took through multiple front end admisitration Sharni, Greg, Dalvyn, ect ect. I for one do not want to see what we fought for to go back to the way it was with a single cookie cutter druid template. Druids are different from Faith to Faith. Each have thier own quirks and abilities that make them unique.
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Re: Track Skill(?)

Post by Rhytania » Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:26 pm

Ok im getting lost in this thread as it is going 4 different ways and looping back on itself on the end.
Raona wrote:Thank you, yes! But it raises new questions - why not Druids of Chauntea, and why are priests of Mielliki and Malar called Clerics? Should that be changed? The three seem to have very similar spell/skill lists. (It still doesn't make sense to add Track to the Druid Skills list until the folks who have it are actually classified as Druids!)
The one thing that certainly seems to emerge from this is that priests of Chauntea should have track, no?
In the game as it stands Druids are coded as Clerics. We have the same base class as clerics do. Which means that at level 1 all clerics have the same exact skills, spells, and abilities until the get faithed. The only difference is when you wear a Malar/Chauntea/Mielikki faith symbol you become a Druid. Chaunteas had there class file changed to reflect Druid where Mielikki/ Malar never had that change cause its purely cosmetic on the score sheet.
Raona wrote:It does not appear in the guild list for Druids of Chauntea.
Are there other druid guilds out there? Do all Druids have this as a trainable skill? If so, what level does it show?!?


It was determined years ago that there where certain skills that each Druid would get upon being faithed. That is why the disparity between the druids are like that. There was a point where druids did not get bow, hide, sneak, track, or slice. So as someone who had been fighting for these rights for years and finally got them, I do not want to see them go away.
Selveem wrote:I think there should be Clerics AND Druids of each nature-type religion.
There would be no need for this because Druids already provide the function as the clergy and lay leaders of their respective faiths and since we ALREADY ARE clerics in the eyes of the code. Think about it what would be the difference of a cleric of Mielikki vs a druid of Mielikki in the mud? the ability to wear heavy armor and use maces? yeah thats not gonna last you for very long being a walking tin can in dense growth forest.
Brar wrote:I think we should take Druid as a class and not three different classes and all of them should have the same skill/spell/weapon list.
Your argument assumes that druids of Mielikki/Chauntea/Malar are EXACTLY the same and should receive the same skills, spells, abilities. Thats about as ridiculous as saying Clerics of Tyr/Mystra/Cyric are all EXACTLY the same and should receive the same skills, spells, abilities as each other. We fought too hard to differentiate ourselves from each other and to get the skills, spells, and abilities that we have to loose it all now.
Technically speaking, a cleric of Tyr and a cleric of Cyric have the same class, hence the same skills and the same spells (the only difference for cleric are the domain spells which are non existant for druids).
Technically speaking we have the same base class as them as well and our classes do not differentiate until we become faithed and put on the faith symbol for the first time. Had Rhytania put on a Symbol of Malar first she would be a Malarite Druid. There is no separate class just a different set of skills and a slight difference of spells. Had she put on a Cyric Symbol same thing, except she would of have been allowed acces to Cyrrics Domain spells and armor and weapons. This has nothing to do with RP or anything but strictly the codebase and game mechanics.
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Re: Track Skill(?)

Post by Eltsac » Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:35 am

For me each classes (Cleric, Druid, Ranger, Paladin, Fighter, Rogue, Bard, Wizard (specialist or not)) should receive one "skill set" and all member of the class should get the same.

After, the difference between characters would be how you use that skill set. I can't see any valid reason for doing otherwise, for me the fact that some druids get more skills is simply unfair and non logical.
Like why does some cleric receive more weapons (cleric of Garl have access to all the axe type while cleric of Moradin have none).

In DnD, you have a class and then you have a god, that is two differents unrelated things and I fail to see why it should not be the case on FK.
I can't find any logic behind it.

For me, what should be done is put Druids on Chauntea on par with others and gives them track.

I also like the idea to make an improved track feat for rangers because I think they are "the best" at it, as it is a class feature for them.
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Re: Track Skill(?)

Post by Selveem » Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:42 am

Eltsac wrote:Like why does some cleric receive more weapons (cleric of Garl have access to all the axe type while cleric of Moradin have none).

In DnD, you have a class and then you have a god, that is two differents unrelated things and I fail to see why it should not be the case on FK.
I can't find any logic behind it.
Actually, this exists in D&D as well. In D&D, Domains do not simply give you access to additional spells per day and the ability to cast some spells that are not available to Clerics (or, in some cases, are completely unique spells that can ONLY be cast with some Domain). They also have additional bonuses such as granting certain skills as class skills (see Trickery domain) or granting your Cleric proficiency to your God's favored weapon as well as weapon focus with it.

A major issue with this is that you do not get to pick your Domains in FK, nor do you get the full benefit of said Domains (though, I believe some clerics of <God> have hard-coded abilities in FK.. like I think Clerics of Mask get steal?).
Eltsac wrote:For me, what should be done is put Druids on Chauntea on par with others and gives them track.

I also like the idea to make an improved track feat for rangers because I think they are "the best" at it, as it is a class feature for them.
Agreed. Both classes should also receive echos urging them to commit dendrophilia-related acts.
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Re: Track Skill(?)

Post by Rhytania » Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:30 pm

Eltsac: In DnD, you have a class and then you have a god, that is two differents unrelated things and I fail to see why it should not be the case on FK.
This is the case for DnD Generica as i like to call which is the setting that is used in the standard PHB, DMG and the rest of the core sets. This was also the case with the Greyhawk setting from 2ed till it died circa 3.5.

But this is neither of those settings. This is FR, where clerics are tied directly to their dieties. FR has always been more diety oriented since the basis of the whole setting revolves around them.

I dont mind goose and gander mentality, but I do oppose it when it clearly opposes what is spelled out. And I know what comes next is this is FK not FR, and DM's (admins) make the rules and whatever, but if we cant stick to canon on the simple issues about wether nor not a Druid of Chauntea can get the same skills(Which I approve BTW, I say let them have bows, hide, sneak, slice, and everything us Mielikkian/Malarites get). I, however, will take the offensive when the hubbub starts going the route of 'if this group doesnt get it then no one should' and start taking away things that are specific to our faith both IC RP and OOC Mechanic that took us years to get.

So yes in a nutshell: a)give Chaunteans the same skill sets we have no problems or complaints. b)Do not give our skill sets to other clerics outside of nature ones.
We dont want any skillsets from the other clerics since we have no need for heavy armour, crazy weapons, or anything like that. Just the same as they have no need for our skillsets.
Last edited by Rhytania on Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Track Skill(?)

Post by Brar » Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:58 pm

Just cool down, there's no need to get angry.

No one since the beginning of the discussion spoke about removing anything so I don't know where you get that idea...

And yes, we all know and agree that clerics of mielikki and chauntea are an abberation of fk coming mainly from a lazyness that change nothing but what is written on a score sheet.
Since the beginning of FK, there were only druids of chauntea and mielikki and no clerics, no sense in changing that and nobody even talked about doing it.

But still, Rulewise in Tabletop FR, all druids are getting the same skills/spells whatever god they follow, same for clerics, same for paladins, same for any classes.

The only thing that changes for druids in FR is the oath regarding metal armour and weapons for Mielikkian but that is an oath, nothing to do with feats, skills or spells.
It's pure RP ...

But let's get to the initial topic, to resume.

I think all druids should have the same skills/spells so give them to Chauntean too.

I think Rangers should get something for their class specific skill (which were free track feat) being shared with druids (who already got many nifty things) and should be better at it (Improved Track from Briek sounds quite nice).

I think we should not even bother changing the label from priest of mielikki or priest of Malar because everyone know they are in fact druids and it will mean a very very big work (changing all the restricted zone building code, ect ect) because it is purely cosmetic on your score sheet and nobody cares about it...

And...that's all that it was ever question in this topic to begin with...

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Re: Track Skill(?)

Post by Rhytania » Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:47 pm

Im not angry. Ive just seen too many times where the good idea fairies win on things that turn out to be bad ideas in the long run.

Brar: I agree with every point in your last post. Thats exactly what I want too. Give some love to the Chaunteans. I just get nervous when people start talking about cross leveling across the board. Especially when its people (obviously not you or Eltsac) but from people who have no vested interest either way.
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Re: Track Skill(?)

Post by Bellayana » Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:33 pm

All druids should have track. KISS. my favorite term.
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Re: Track Skill(?)

Post by Raona » Sat Aug 13, 2011 10:34 pm

Each faith priest has its own guild file, so by default we can (and do) customize faithed priests, giving them each a spell list and title. That's already in place, and I think it totally appropriate to take advantage of it where it makes things better. If a certain faith gets an advantage relative to its peers, though, they should suffer a concordant disadvantage. In the case of priests of Chauntea, I can see good reasons for them lacking track relative to other druids - but do they have any offsetting advantage? If not, I think it would be nifty if they got track, but there have been good explanations about why they don't have track and I'd just as soon find an appropriate offsetting advantage for them - create food and water as an ability or something? These exceptions could easily be outlined in the helpfile on the skill in question (Track) and the faith in question (Druids of Chauntea).

As for the guild titles, it would sure make a lot more sense with respect to the helpfiles (and for new players) if the druids were called druids. Am I understanding right that if the guild files for priests of Malar and Mielliki are renamed, it will break quests? If so, it's probably not worth doing, but I want to make sure I'm getting that right.

Thanks for the helpful historical context, Rhytania. If you see a change here threatening the efforts made to differentiate druids, please don't be shy, I appreciate your speaking up!
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Re: Track Skill(?)

Post by Lirith » Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:59 pm

Just FYI, druids of Mielikki DO NOT get bows as a trainable weapon. I just tried to train it with mine without success and I've also just noticed it doesn't appear in the list of weapons. My question is, should they be able to train bows?
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Re: Track Skill(?)

Post by Lathander » Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:29 pm

Sounds like a separate topic for discussion. Please open a new one if you wish to introduce that idea.
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