The Thieving Game

For the discussion of general topics about the game.
Levine
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Re: The Thieving Game

Post by Levine » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:23 pm

Very quickly - I want to first say that I don't think this event is a flop, and you shouldn't severely tweak the concept in future. I don't see anything wrong with the event.

What has happened here is a very interesting discussion on thieving conduct. Let's not talk about thieving conduct in general, because the lines there are greyer and many more things to consider and the arguments could go on for ages.

For this event, specifically, I believe there should be smotes, at least. Smote while hidden, do whatever, just smote. If you can't trust the other players enough to treat IC as IC, and OOC as OOC, then I think, Johara, that the goal of the game (RP) runs severely contrary to the spirit of execution you are endorsing (i.e. no-RP stealing).

This isn't about "if they smoted then i might not have lost my rose". This isn't about losing the rose - this is about the spirit of RP. My stance has always been, if you can't trust other players to be able to react appropriately/realistically to a "Someone from the market's crowd brushes up against you as they pass" then, why do you even want to play with these players? I'd then take this event as a test of the market, to see which players I'd like to play more with - which ones are cool and reasonable, and which ones can't get over their egos, so this effort of yours isn't wasted.

Don't be discouraged - there's a huge opportunity here to make Maskarrans the rightful role models for thieves, but if there is nothing to see, there is nothing to be impressed with. Right now, it comes across as ICly and OOCly sneaky business that has zero benefit to the rose-bearing PCs that basically are just mules for stealing (if the thieves choose to steal), but I think I speak for myself and a number of other players that we are willing to let thieves have their moments of glory, as long as they earn it, and that we know how to RP appropriately even if we see a smote while they're hidden.
Must I kill them
To make them lie still

Johara
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Re: The Thieving Game

Post by Johara » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:25 pm

Levine,

That is a point well taken. And as you said, the real underlying motive for the event is to encourage thieves to be Maskarrans. And I would like for them to be the role models for all thieves.
McLeach: Did you take one of my eggs?

Johara, with an egg in her shut mouth, shakes her head no

McLeach: Open your mouth.

Johara opens her mouth, moving the egg on her tongue to the side and hiding it from view

McLeach: These are NOT... Johara's Eggs!

Areia
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Re: The Thieving Game

Post by Areia » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:23 pm

I'm sorry to see the loud and less than helpful tone a minority has chosen to take here, but I agree generally with many of the points raised. I'll tell you, I gave my rose away at the outset, too, because I had a suspicion from the way the rules of engagement were set out that some thieves, probably a one or two minority, would choose to make the contest a one-way thing, and I plainly didn't want to have to deal with that frustration at the moment.

By "a one-way thing," I mean to say not that I knew I would lose and the thieves would win out; rather, that I would lose without having known I'd lost, without having had a chance to roleplay my own failure. Honestly, maybe I'm somewhat strange in this regard, but I like nothing more than to see someone else get and keep the upper hand on one of my PCs well enough to mean his/her downfall, and I think it's fair to say that I will go to extreme lengths to help to make their success that much more glorious, as long as the other side allows me a chance to do so. If it doesn't, then well, I tend to get pissed and throw a finger of death at them :P because there's nothing worse than not being able to roleplay a loss like that.

This might be a not-so-popular opinion, but I'll share it anyway and invite those who might be offended by it to PM me. Players on this game should be mature and friendly enough to be able to stop fighting and start playing dead/injured when another PC has found a clever way to stun them; likewise, we should be mature and friendly enough not to react to "someone does stuff" smotes, unless that reaction is, again, to play dead (or in this case, ignorant); and we should be mature and friendly enough to let our IC enemies, win or lose, have a chance to take active part in our plots. In any case, if you know there's someone who isn't that mature or friendly, I say there's nothing at all wrong with ignoring their existance in the game, and to lowkey suggest other concerned parties do likewise, until they choose to grow up or leave. That is to say, I find nothing wrong with excluding individual players from events or general play on the basis of their wanting to be above the community rather than a part of it. Fortunately the number of such players is extremely low, but unfortunately they do tend to make the biggest negative impact whatever side they're on.

So if you want an RP event, demand RP and exclude anyone on either side who chooses to make it a game strictly of numbers rather than one of multi-sided RP supported by numbers.

On a lighter note, thanks very much for making an effort to revive Mask and thieves in general. They can be so engaging and fun when they're played by good people. Keep up the good work!
Nascentes morimur, finisque ab origine pendet.

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Gwain
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Re: The Thieving Game

Post by Gwain » Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:30 am

Areia wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:23 pm
In any case, if you know there's someone who isn't that mature or friendly, I say there's nothing at all wrong with ignoring their existance in the game, and to lowkey suggest other concerned parties do likewise, until they choose to grow up or leave. That is to say, I find nothing wrong with excluding individual players from events or general play on the basis of their wanting to be above the community rather than a part of it. Fortunately the number of such players is extremely low, but unfortunately they do tend to make the biggest negative impact whatever side they're on.

So if you want an RP event, demand RP and exclude anyone on either side who chooses to make it a game strictly of numbers rather than one of multi-sided RP supported by numbers.
This I support and agree with totally. You can only run an event in a text based game ever so well for the public level without at least trusting the participants to try and flow with situations or present difficulties before they are just beyond managing and write them off entirely. It ruins the game for you. It can make great enemies ooc and ic for life but in the more immediate future you might have to deal with less stress and hot garbage.

On the thief event. I'd probably smote and emote a bit before I stole just because it's interesting to deal with the rp. These events can't be easy to do but are a good way to track the progress of a flock. In a game where the code gives us the means to do things automatically without the dm to regulate and the dice to thwart, it can't be easy to manage a thief. Hopefully everything works out for the best and everyone will be satisfied.
Justice is not neccesarily honourable, it is a tolerable business, in essence you tolerate honour until it impedes justice, then you do what is right.

Spelling is not necessarily correct :)

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Jarngron
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Re: The Thieving Game

Post by Jarngron » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:33 am

Please don't feel this event was a failure. Though you may have not found the outcome to be favorable or ideal, your plot mechanic - stealing the roses - created a lot of roleplay. Thank you for that.



As a note, I feel the real goal -was- to emphasize things like bumping into people as a smote before you stole from them, or conspiring with a partner to thrust a painting up to distract someone while another person snuck up and stole. There's even techniques for ladies falling down and getting helped back up, or being overly drunk, or overly friendly and just pointing out several things nearby in succession to confuse their eyes. I would recommend things like using pets or other minions, who can be great distractions. So it was not ideal to just 'steal rose player' in my opinion at all. There are so many clever ways to rob people and that was what the hostess really wanted.
Cattle die
kinsmen die
all men are mortal.
Words of praise
will never perish
nor a noble name.

- Hávamál

Yemin
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Re: The Thieving Game

Post by Yemin » Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:44 am

From the perspective of a possible victim in any theft situation, as I don't play rogues. I personally don't like it when rogues smote when hidden.

I play from the perspective of the first person when I log in, so if my character wouldn't see it, I prefer not to see it in my output either.

There are places in the game where by code thieves will steal your stuff, and I rank FK as one of the top MUDs out here in the wilds for quality control and putting effort into even their NPCs behaving properly and I don't see my stuff just vanishing as at all inappropriate.

Sure, I can see how a thief emoting presents more opportunity for roleplaying, but some forms of roleplaying aren't meant to be seen or enjoyed by everyone. In my imaginings, fantasy theft roleplaying should only really be seen by everyone when it goes wrong. And personally, i'm against making people conform to one flavour of roleplaying when it comes to a topic as long as its within the rules.

As for specific places like the market. Its long been my stance that wide, open spaces with lots of people should be subject to the belief that the nature of the area reduces the chance of noticing things that aren't immediately near you or your group. Its a perfect place for things to just vanish in my opinion. The only places a thief should need to interact is quiet or small rooms where hiding may be possible by code, but improbable, like a booth at a restaurant.

In those situations, I'd say that the thief should probably use sneak to get in but use their common sense. Unless they intend to slip in under the table, snatch and leave, they probably shouldn't be hiding when they slip into the booth. Again, from the perspective of the mark.

Lastly, and I only suspect rather than know that this applies here and if not ignore. But I enjoy it when my fellow players respect me enough to expect that I will lose gracefully. I find these kinds of discussions hit too close to couching the inability to just take a loss and move on in less ugly packaging.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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